PC/Nuc version recommendations?

[Willem]

I have a similar interest. I use the desktop PC in my study to stream music while I am working, and the current one is old and a bit noisy. Therefore I have decided I need a fanless computer. However, I also use the same computer for speech recognition software because I suffer from rsi complaints. My work involves a lot of writing, and going over to speach recognition has reduced my complaints a lot. However, the software is pretty power hungry: a faster computer produces rather fewer errors. Unfortunately speed and low energy consumption do not go hand in hand. As a result I have postponed getting a new computer as long as I could, until the stage would be reached that I could get a fast enough fanless computer. I cannot wait much longer, and my hunch is that fanless computers can now be fast enough. Am I right? Budget max some $750-1000 excluding screen. And I am in Europe.

 

[Eirikur]

I recently installed a simple Celeron J3455 NUC with 8GB ram and 120GB SSD using Windows 10.
This is plenty for my purpose which is direct NAS playback and DSD decoding, including 5.1, and some (2.0) DSP like MathAudio RoomEQ inline in foobar2000 - never tried Roon/JRiver or any other and I'm also not using Spotify, Tidal or any other streaming service, so no info on that.

If you want to do sophisticated re-sampling it doesn't always cut it! My output chains directly into ASIO to my Topping D10 DAC (including DoP DSD), so I don't face the dreaded Win10 re-sampling, but this is a consideration.

Although the DAC can do all the work I'm also experimenting with DSD decoding + custom FIR implementations, plenty of headroom for that.

All of the above is usually headless using RealVNC and my laptop - this is additional load for the processor of course.

 

[BillG]

I cannot wait much longer, and my hunch is that fanless computers can now be fast enough. Am I right? Budget max some $750-1000 excluding screen.

Fanless computers, i7+, are all over the Net currently:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?client=opera&q=fanless+i7&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[Eirikur]

Great article Kal. My windows i5 Roon server runs with no load until I enable DSD to PCM conversion. Then, it struggles to play reliably.

I don't have Roon, but could it be that you have "Enable Native DSD Processing" switched on?
Seems pointless to do that when you convert to PCM anyway (i.e. Roon should switch that for you).

 

[Krunok]

I don't have Roon, but could it be that you have "Enable Native DSD Processing" switched on?
Seems pointless to do that when you convert to PCM anyway (i.e. Roon should switch that for you).

Most DSD recordings were anyhow derived from PCM masters.

 

[Krunok]

Speaking of DSD to PCM conversion and EQ - this is a "top" snaphot of my Dell D50D fanless PC playing DSD recording with Volumio with conversion to PCM and doing EQ with BruteFIR with two 65536 taps filters. Processor is AMD G-T48E 1.4 GHz (dual core), so a total joke compared to i7.

 

[FrantzM]

I’m sorry but that’s a bit overstated. If someone wants to run a personal server for their music on windows, it’s not like the thing is going to just not work. I’m as much of a Linux proponent as anyone, but we shouldn’t be spreading FUD.

+1

 

[FooYatChong]

My main question is - how much difference do the different NUC generations really make? Should I steer away from Gen5 machines?

A NUC7 Pentium j5005 delivers about the same performance as a NUC5 i5.

 

[Krunok]

Ah! You might read what I wrote about the Nucleus+ which uses a recent i7. It does OK on multichannel DSD/PCM but chokes if pushed to handle up/downsampling and/or DSP. In other words, just getting a recent i7 or i5 may or may not be enough.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-96-roon-dolby-atmos

It is hard to have any serious discussion about i7 or i5 ability to do multichannel processing as there is not a single CPU utilisation measurement in your article. Even basic analysis should at least contain CPU utilisation logs before and during such processing. Several other parameters should also be logged before claiming that CPU is a bottleneck.

 

[Eirikur]

A NUC7 Pentium j5005 delivers about the same performance as a NUC5 i5.

Looks to be about 1.5x the CPU power of my J3455 for the "same" 10w TPD.
I see that Intel NUC Kit NUC7PJYH has one of those, not too expensive either.

Bear in mind that these are usually not completely silent. They have a fan that either kicks in when necessary, or, as per my own settings, runs at a steady low level an scales up when needed. It is quiet enough for me, but I did consider an Akasa case for it to make it completely silent - alas, no longer available for my model...

Also consider: Intel HD audio is supported over HDMI with multi-channel for all possible frequencies, but the analog and optical out are often implemented with a budget Realtek chip (here ALC233) that doesn't support some key audio frequency rates; e.g. mine doesn't support 88.2 and 176.4, thus precluding DoP over optical!
Its not easy to find this information upfront... dig through this dump and it appears that ALC233 can only do 88200 in stereo on the digital interface, but you need at least 176400/24 for DoP.
When using a USB DAC this is all moot of course.

 

[FooYatChong]

Akasa case for it to make it completely silent - alas, no longer available for my model

At least in Europe the Akasa Newton AC is readily available.

 

[Eirikur]

At least in Europe the Akasa Newton AC is readily available.

They make a specific version for every distinct Intel NUC.
Different models have different port layouts and really don't fit

Edit(1): indeed the Newton AC would be correct for my NUC6CAYH, but even though it is listed the availability is zero... I've seen one or two at double the "true"/realistic price, well over EUR 100,--
Edit(2): found one in Germany, thanks @FooYatChong for making me have another look!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't have Roon, but could it be that you have "Enable Native DSD Processing" switched on?
Seems pointless to do that when you convert to PCM anyway (i.e. Roon should switch that for you).

Tried it both ways.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Most DSD recordings were anyhow derived from PCM masters.

People keep saying that and, statistically and globally, that may be true. OTOH, there are very many in my collection which are not.

It is hard to have any serious discussion about i7 or i5 ability to do multichannel processing as there is not a single CPU utilisation measurement in your article. Even basic analysis should at least contain CPU utilisation logs before and during such processing. Several other parameters should also be logged before claiming that CPU is a bottleneck.

Understood and I would have done that if I could. Instead I had to focus on Roon's internal estimate of processing capability because the Nucleus+ is limited to using Roon and I had no access to system tools with the Nucleus.

 

[Krunok]

People keep saying that and, statistically and globally, that may be true. OTOH, there are very many in my collection which are not.

Mastering equipment that is capable of end-to-end DSD processing is quite rare and quite expensive, I doubt many studios went that way as it simply wouldn't pay off. Not to mention that I have yet to see a proof that DSD is in any way superior to PCM.

Understood and I would have done that if I could. Instead I had to focus on Roon's internal estimate of processing capability because the Nucleus+ is limited to using Roon and I had no access to system tools with the Nucleus.

Pity. It would be interesting to find out what was really going on. IMHO there must be something seriously wrong with the software that can't do DSD-PCM multichannel processing with i5 and especially with i7 processor. That algorithm is simply not that demanding so that would imply that processor resources were already used by something else.

 

[JanRSmit]

Nuc7-i7DNK(E, H), quad core i7, 25w tdp. Put in an fanless akasa. Works like charm, i run Roon core(rock) on it, my qutest dac does not accept DSD, so transcoding on the fly.
Even beter with a lpsu, i use sBooster.

 

[Ron Texas]

Great article Kal. My windows i5 Roon server runs with no load until I enable DSD to PCM conversion. Then, it struggles to play reliably.

Intreresting. I guess it depends on the method of conversion used, how many channels, sample rate, and how resampling is done. My puny Pentium powered NUC can convert DSD to PCM and apply EQ with a convolver, but it can't do that without downsampling the stream first. I can change sample rates, but the Secret Rabbit resampler will choke at it's best two snr settings. Similarly, HQ player needs lots of CPU power. SOX has a low CPU usage.

I suspect the workarounds I am using don't make an audible difference, but I have not checked. In the case of multichannel, there might not be a workaround. Most of the DSD I have has been converted to PCM offline so I don't have to do it on the fly.

If a recent I7 isn't enough, then what is?

Granted, my Pentium just gets by. However, as one moves up in CPU power and load heat increases to the point where even advanced fanless cases can't carry it all away.

 

[Neddy]

BillG re: MusicBee.
Thanks!
Yes, I have the MB Android app - nice for what it does, but doesn't seem to support my preferred listening mode:
Search/Find 'Artist' AND '=>4*s' AND ='mood' (and any other qualifiers I can think of, like 'acoustic bass').
While I can and do create playlists, I find them to be a bit too constraining when I'm chasing one musical 'notion' from track to track...not to mention artist to artist.
(You wouldn't think it'd be that hard to do, really, just a simple SQL query!)
No idea if JR will even do this yet, either, or Roon, for that matter -so will just have to bite the bullet and load 'em up to trial out.
I do like Roon's ability to display associated material, like liner notes and reviews, but not critical.
Definitely agree on the Roon cost/benefit being 'problematic', however if I find it's the only UI that does what I want, I'll bloody find the money for it and cross my fingers that a 'lifetime' subscription doesn't turn into a 'lifetime of costly upgrades'!

I did try the MB DNLA client with the Oppo103...and for some reason (it was a while ago) didn't care for the results.

To date, my use of MB has been at my main workstation (ToppingD50+JBL 305s) which I've been using to evaluate, rate, and tag new music finds or rips - and it excels for that use. But I'd really prefer to be able to do all that from the main system - IOW, use the new PC for editing of track info/tags as well as playback.
(If only b/c the little 305s just cannot 'show me' the ~20hz stuff the main system can do!)

My sense of JR is just what you say - engineered for engineers - not a bad thing surely, but in my experience usually a heavy price to pay on the UI end! (My background in apps dev makes me a bit picky when it comes to UI design).
"Fiddle factor" definitely has great value - as long as I don't spend more time fiddling than playing and the 'fiddling' is not required except for during setup.

Many thanks for your very helpful reply!!

 

[Neddy]

Regarding Roon, up-sampling, DSD, 'performance anxiety' etc - these discussions are exactly why I posted this question to begin with - so Many Many thanks!, I'm learning a whole lot, and filling in stuff that 'suspected' but had no certain knowledge about.
You folks are a wonderful resource - without this I'd be basically choosing almost at random!!
(I did start digging into NUC enthusiast sites, but that became more confusing than helpful pretty quickly).

So...now that I've 'committed', I can share that the USB DAC I intend to use is the OktoDAC Pro - I placed my order yesterday - fingers crossed! (Came back as "Order # 75" ...yeeps.)

So, that DAC has some limitations on it's USB capabilities, which means I wont be buying any more DSD512 releases (!) - fine by me - those are too pricey anyway.
Restricting future DL purchases to, say, DSD64 or 192/24 and limiting down-sampling seems reasonable and sensible to me!
Up-sampling - that's a bit less clear to me, and I gather it may depend a bit on which software I end up choosing?

Regarding NUC packaging - if possible, I'd like to either keep the package small enough to live hidden on the bottom/back of the rack, or live in all or part of a spare 1U slot I have left in the rack. That last would seem to eliminate the akasa, which is >2" high...but will certainly keep that in mind.

So, it seems to me that my price goal (under, say, $400) may well limit me to an i5/i7 of a recent but not current generation, which might also keep the heat issues to 'moderate'...but since it'll live in the bottom of a rack I'd hope that I can manage any fan noise (which I hate - the only gear I have that makes audible fan noise is the Venu360, and that only when it's 'working hard', and should not be audible in the rack I'm building.)

I do have the option of adding more rack fans if needed, too - currently planning on two Noctua 200mms, which I've experimented with, and run nearly dead silent, but could add more 'pushers' at the bottom if needed.

There are dozens/hundreds of used NUCs to choose from of course - and bottom line pricing seems to vary more by accessories, so I'm mostly looking at i7s with the most RAM and largest SSD (though I will not need a huge one).
Cases are something I had not given much thought to previously, so thanks for those comments; I'll have to dig deeper into those options -whether for purchase selection or post-puchase modification remains to be seen.

Great Stuff - thanks for all the good info!!!!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Mastering equipment that is capable of end-to-end DSD processing is quite rare and quite expensive, I doubt many studios went that way as it simply wouldn't pay off.

Probably more common in classical recordings which depend less on processing/editing.

Not to mention that I have yet to see a proof that DSD is in any way superior to PCM.

Not the point here.

Pity. It would be interesting to find out what was really going on. IMHO there must be something seriously wrong with the software that can't do DSD-PCM multichannel processing with i5 and especially with i7 processor. That algorithm is simply not that demanding so that would imply that processor resources were already used by something else.

Since the Nucleus+ cannot do anything else afaik, what could that be?