Parasound 23+

[CyRock]

Anyone have experience with the Parasound 23+? Was looking at the 2125 v2 and 2250 v.2, and someone suggested the P23+ to improve an AVR system.

I am not familiar with what an A/AB amp is. Also, do these run real hot?

Goal is to replace the AVR eventually with separate components...one step at a time

Thanks

 

[Doodski]

I am not familiar with what an A/AB amp is. Also, do these run real hot?

A "class A" amplifier biases the output transistors so that they do not turn off momentarily when they cross O volts output. This is supposed to sound better and eliminates crossover distortion. Some of them run hot and some don't run very hot. Some class A are snake oil and some are not.

A "class AB" amplifier runs in class A mode for the first 1 watt or maybe 3, 5, 10, 20, 50 watts or whatever the designer makes it to do. Then after a certain output power the amplifier is switched into class B mode for greater efficiency and less heat. A class AB can be a good design and can be snake oil too.

The Parasound stuff you are looking at is good stuff.
https://parasound.com/2250-v2.php
https://www.parasound.com/2125-v2.php
https://parasound.com/a23+.php

 

[Pdxwayne]

I have the original a23 and a21, not the '+’ versions. For my normal day to day use, a23 can get pretty warm, but never got so hot that you can't place your hand on top of the case.

I have used preout of my Pioneer sc95 AVR to connect to A23 to drive a center speaker before and I did like the sound of A23 more.

I recently got my old Onkyo tx-nr 808 to work again. And I also prefer using Onkyo preout to drive a couple of A23 than using Onkyo's built in amps.

 

[CyRock]

Thanks Doodski and Pdxwayne.

Follow-up question since I am going to be adding this to an AVR, would you have a preference?

Also, I don't understand the amp side of things. For example, how does a 80 watts amp cost $1200 when a 160 watt amp can cost $899? I have read where a low amperage amps can drive speakers fine ins some cases. I don't understand the math I guess... so how far to step into a new amp? Any rules of thumbs? Current speakers for 2 channel towers at 15-180 watts, however probably will get newer speakers at some point.

Thanks again
CyRock

 

[Pdxwayne]

Thanks Doodski and Pdxwayne.

Follow-up question since I am going to be adding this to an AVR, would you have a preference?

Also, I don't understand the amp side of things. For example, how does a 80 watts amp cost $1200 when a 160 watt amp can cost $899? I have read where a low amperage amps can drive speakers fine ins some cases. I don't understand the math I guess... so how far to step into a new amp? Any rules of thumbs? Current speakers for 2 channel towers at 15-180 watts, however probably will get newer speakers at some point.

Thanks again
CyRock

I am out of market for an AVR a pretty long time and don't really have a suggestion of which to get. It seems certain Denon model is rated pretty good here.

Amp price can be all over the place, so I am not surprised by the price difference. I would pay attention to amp's ability to drive 4 ohm speakers. Also pay attention to reviews here. : )

 

[Doodski]

Thanks Doodski and Pdxwayne.

Follow-up question since I am going to be adding this to an AVR, would you have a preference?

Also, I don't understand the amp side of things. For example, how does a 80 watts amp cost $1200 when a 160 watt amp can cost $899? I have read where a low amperage amps can drive speakers fine ins some cases. I don't understand the math I guess... so how far to step into a new amp? Any rules of thumbs? Current speakers for 2 channel towers at 15-180 watts, however probably will get newer speakers at some point.

Thanks again
CyRock

It is possible to have a more expensive amp with less wattage because there are factors at play like the power supply design, the amp design and the cabinet supporting all of this. All of those things can be done more economically or go all out and make a really high quality linear output amplifier that costs more money to build but has less output power.

What are the models versus prices of the various Parasound models you are looking at?
https://parasound.com/2250-v2.php
https://www.parasound.com/2125-v2.php
https://parasound.com/a23+.php

For example this A23+ is a high bias Class A/AB design and is obviously very high quality and most likely expensive.

 

[CyRock]

Doodski

I was going to go the 2125 route since I can get pretty good power at a very good price. If I ever needed more power, I could bridge a 2nd one, if I understand that correctly and get 400amps if needed? But then I started talking myself into the 2250. I reached out to Parasound, and they directed me to the 23+, instead of the other two.

My main concern is being under/over powered if I buy a new set of speakers....which I will. I would guess 1000-1500/pair range (towers or BS and sub...haven't decided which). I guess I am looking for an amp that is safe, hedges the future regardless what I buy. I tend to hold onto things and probably wont switch around a lot, at least on my main system. I wish I knew more about this stuff, specifically amps, so thanks for your insight so far. Just trying to educate myself a little and I realize I'm not giving great info. CyRock

 

[Doodski]

The 2125 v.2 outputs:

• 150 watts x 2 into 8 Ω (all channels driven).
• 225 watts x 2 into 4 Ω or 2 Ω (all channels driven).
• 400 watts x 1 bridged into 8 Ω or 4 Ω.
• 35 amps peak current per channel.
• 2 Ohm stable operation with load selector switch.

The 2250 v.2 outputs:

• 275 watts x 2 into 8 Ω (all channels driven).
• 400 watts x 2 into 4 Ω or 2 Ω (all channels driven).
• 750 watts x 1 bridged into 8 Ω or 4 Ω.
• 45 amps peak current per channel.
• 2 Ohm stable operation with load selector switch.

The A23+ outputs:

• 160 watts x 2 @ 8 Ω RMS, both channels driven.
• 240 watts x 2 @ 4 Ω RMS, both channels driven.
• 500 watts x 1 @ 8 Ω, in bridged mode.
• High bias Class A/AB operation.
• 45 amperes peak current per channel.
• Stable with speaker impedance dips below 2 Ω.
• Filter cap: 54,400 uF.
• Crosstalk (20kHz): 70dB.
• Transformer size: 1.1 kVA.

The A23+ is a step above the other amps. The adjustable "Turn on options", balanced inputs, 1.1kVA power supply transformer, 54,400 uF power supply capacitance and of course the stable with speaker impedance dips below 2Ω all make it future proof and make it a very desirable amplifier. It should last you many years and perform very well. The sound quality should be exemplary with all of it's very good design topology. It has lots of power and of course if you have the need for the ultimate in dynamic power output you can have that 500 watts x 1 @ 8 Ω, in bridged mode. Whether you operate it in stereo or bridged mode you will have enough power to drive the woofers to the suspension end stops. Balanced input/outputs is becoming more common for home stereo gear everyday and that will be a great feature for future proofing your purchase whether you are running in stereo mode or in surround sound. The better surround processors are using balanced and single ended RCA inputs/outputs and if you have a balanced input amplifier that will be preferable for reduced noise and hum, better crosstalk specs and integrity of connection.

What is the price of the A23+ and the 2250?

 

[Doodski]

2125 v.2 The differences in amplifier topology and design becomes pretty obvious compared the the A23+

NewClassic 2250 v.2 It has better design than the 2125 v.2

And then we have the A23+ with the best design that is obvious with a simple look at the top view.

 

[CyRock]

Great info and the photos are awesome...incredible what's inside. Thanks for some explanation too.

I am finding the following regarding pricing.
2250 v2 is on sale at $999.00 ($400 off)
23+ is at $1595.00

 

[Doodski]

Well for most people any one of these Parasound amps would suffice but for a long term future proof high quality purchase the A23+ is the one to purchase. If you can afford the extra $596.00 then the A23+ is the one to buy. The differences in hearing sound quality between the amps will depend mostly on your speakers. If your speakers are difficult to drive and have what it takes to show you the difference between the amps then the A23+ is the one to buy. When you do purchase speakers you will have no issues with the A23+ in respect to knowing if the amp will drive most any speaker you will buy and that's comforting. If you buy some average speaker then the 2250 v.2 will suffice but you won't get the balanced inputs and the infinitely variable turn on threshold, "Turn on options." I've read here that peeps have issue with their amplifier not turning on or turning on at the wrong time due to the sensitivity of the "Turn on options" threshold not sensing a signal properly. That infinitely variable "Turn on options" will solve that issue.

 

[Vasr]

First of all, the best way to buy Parasound equipment is via the B-stock (Factory refurb with full warranty, they do a very good job of making sure that it looks brand new and their customer service is excellent if you should have problems) or open-box (customer returns re-boxed but full warranty) at Safe and Sound. A 23+ can be as low as $1250 free shipping if you wait for it to come into stock.

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/collections/parasound-b-stock
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/pages/search-results-page?q=parasound+open+box

A23+ is a cut-down version of the original John Curl A21 design but it does not include all the circuit wizardry of the expensive amps and so that should be taken with a grain of salt. However, the build, reliability and customer service for it is excellent. They seem to build in a lot of protection into their amps. They are very good for driving difficult speaker loads and stable. The earlier A23 made some component choices that weren't great and it had some issues. The A23+ appears to have fixed it. These will be better than any AVR's internal amps for most speakers but like most amps, it is not something that you are likely to say wow necessarily when you hear it. Difficult content into difficult speakers is where they are likely to make the most difference. But if you want an amp you can keep for decades this would be it like most Parasound equipment.

If you just want an external amp to escape out of limited AVR amp capabilities, I am not sure dual Outlaw monoblocks wouldn't do the same job either for several hundred dollars cheaper.

The non Halo series of Parasound are in a lower tier (in design, component choice and build quality) and would be similar to the above Outlaws in that aspect. They have it to occupy the lower price brackets but they do recommend the Halos if you can afford it.

 

[CyRock]

Vasr, I'll check out those links. Thank you

 

[peng]

The A23+ is a step above the other amps. The adjustable "Turn on options", balanced inputs, 1.1kVA power supply transformer, 54,400 uF power supply capacitance and of course the stable with speaker impedance dips below 2Ω all make it future proof and make it a very desirable amplifier.

It is a good amp for the price just a word of caution on the 1.1 kVA transformer and 54,400 uF specs. I have the A21, that has a 1.2 kVA transformer so when I noticed the much smaller 28 lbs (less than half that of the A21) A23's has a 1 kVA one according to the website at the time, I email them about it and sure enough was told it was a mistake and 850 VA would be the correct number. They also inflated the capacitance of the A21 to 100,000 uf when it was actually 88,000 uf total.

That's the A21 and A23, but the A23+ looks extremely similar to the A23 inside and out, and according to the specs in the manual, the A23+ is 1 lb lighter. I highly doubt its transformer is as big as they say on the website. If you read the manual, it's even bigger, a whopping 1.3 kVA!!

Again, those Halo amps are well built, but I am disappointed with their documentation that don't show the very important power supply specifications in a consistent (and accuracy?) fashion.

 

[GeorgeWalk]

I have the Parasound New Classic Pre 200 and 275v2. I like them alot. I haven't seen any measurements on them, but I think the quality construction are top notch. I bought them as refurb from Safe and Sound and I would recommend them.

 

[Fastfwd]

First of all, the best way to buy Parasound equipment is via the B-stock (Factory refurb with full warranty, they do a very good job of making sure that it looks brand new and their customer service is excellent if you should have problems) or open-box (customer returns re-boxed but full warranty) at Safe and Sound. A 23+ can be as low as $1250 free shipping if you wait for it to come into stock.

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/collections/parasound-b-stock
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/pages/search-results-page?q=parasound+open+box

I'm curious if there is anything against one of the other authorized online dealers, Music Direct?

Music Direct Demo Units

These are listed as 'Demo Units' which they state implies they were used 'in the office for sales training.' Which sounds like a pretty easy life if true. I don't believe these were subjected to hundreds of random customers cranking them to the max on a Best Buy showroom floor in contrast. I don't think Music Direct even has a showroom, but idk. 'Demo' could just be how they list all returns under the 60 day return period window too, however.

Safe and Sound has actual refurbs in stock currently. Is there any reason to buy one of those from them instead? Their only 'open box' is a sliver model that's $80 higher than the Music Direct 'Demo Unit' (possibly an open box from a customer).

I've been looking at this for a while now. My Denon 4500 drives my Revel F35's pretty easily. That's what they are designed for I gather (AVR power). I am just looking to take a load off my Denon running 5.1.4 (it never seems to break a sweat frankly) and give myself the option to possibly drive more difficult speakers in the future should I ever decide to try something different. My Denon as my only amp did cause me to rule out a few other speaker options like the KEF LS50 when I was making a decision last year. My impression is that the Parasound A23+ is pretty capable and able to drive whatever you throw at it.

 

[Willyspu]

Not sure if you purchased yet but Safe&Sound has both the black and silver available in B-Stock for the same price that Music Direct has their demo. I purchased this very amp about 1 year ago to power my LS50's. They sounded great and it is not a hot running amp. I also purchased the Parasound p6 preamp which was also very nice. Both were B-stock and I could not tell where any imperfections were. They both came with full Parasound warranty as well.
Here is a link:
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...-b-stock-full-warranty?variant=19834554187830

 

[Fastfwd]

Not sure if you purchased yet but Safe&Sound has both the black and silver available in B-Stock for the same price that Music Direct has their demo. I purchased this very amp about 1 year ago to power my LS50's. They sounded great and it is not a hot running amp. I also purchased the Parasound p6 preamp which was also very nice. Both were B-stock and I could not tell where any imperfections were. They both came with full Parasound warranty as well.
Here is a link:
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...-b-stock-full-warranty?variant=19834554187830

Thanks! I got mine in from Music Direct this week. It's in perfect condition. Very glad to see that.

I haven't done blind testing or anything drastic with it. Just getting it dialed in with the Denon Audyssey and spinning through a few new SACD discs. I would love to be able to do a blind test between this and the Denon to see if I could reliably pick it based on different material. The Denon 4500 is really very good for what it is. It is no joke. I've been very happy with it from a soundstage, imaging, tone, etc. perspective.

I think where I am really seeing the A23+ shine is how much it can dig deeper with my current speakers (Revel F35). It has more grunt down low and I think it actually has a pretty strong advantage in how it controls the Revels in lower frequencies. If I were given a blind test that included a jazz bass solo like on my Thelonious Monk Straight No Chaser SACD track of Japanese Folk Song for example - I think I would be able to clearly pick it out, but even that could be my wishful thinking without a true blind test. I certainly feel satisfied.

That was what I was hoping for anyway. I was curious what the top end might sound like. Maybe even concerned if I could detect it being noisier based on what a few tests might show, but not at all to my ears. No buzzing at idle. Nothing negative at all. It stays cool as a cucumber with plenty of airflow.

I just can't say from memory alone that it sounds like a night and day difference with anything except the lower frequencies, but that was the improvement that I was hoping for anyway. I've only just begun to start listening with it. So, I may come to a different conclusion at some point, but out of the gate it sounds a lot like the Denon in many ways which is actually a very good thing.

 

[amper42]

I would go with the Monolith 2x200 instead. Save $500 and get an amp that meets every need I can imagine. Built by ATI. https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15595

Model 15595
Number of Channels 2
Inputs 2x unbalanced RCA, 2x balanced XLR
EIA 1kHz Output Power at 8 Ohms* 250 watts
EIA 1kHz Output Power at 4 Ohms* 375 watts
FTC Full Bandwidth Output Power at 8 Ohms** 200 watts
FTC Full Bandwidth Output Power at 4 Ohms** 300 watts
Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power 1.6 volts
Frequency Response at Rated Output 20Hz to 20kHz ±0.1dB
Signal‑to‑Noise Ratio "A‑Weighted"Greater than 120dB below rated FTC Full Bandwidth Power
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD)Less than 0.03% at full rated FTC power Less than 0.005% at full EIA power at 1kHz
Total Capacitance44,800µF (22,400µF per channel)
Load ImpedanceSafe with all types of loads Rated for 4 to 16 ohms
Damping FactorGreater than 400 from 10Hz ~ 100kHz
GainVoltage gain of 28dB
Chassis Dimensions 17.0" x 7.0" x 13.3" (432 x 178 x 338 mm)
Net Weight 48.0 lbs. (21.8kg)

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/monoprice-monolith-7-channel-amplifier-review/3

 

[bigguyca]

It is a good amp for the price just a word of caution on the 1.1 kVA transformer and 54,400 uF specs. I have the A21, that has a 1.2 kVA transformer so when I noticed the much smaller 28 lbs (less than half that of the A21) A23's has a 1 kVA one according to the website at the time, I email them about it and sure enough was told it was a mistake and 850 VA would be the correct number. They also inflated the capacitance of the A21 to 100,000 uf when it was actually 88,000 uf total.

That's the A21 and A23, but the A23+ looks extremely similar to the A23 inside and out, and according to the specs in the manual, the A23+ is 1 lb lighter. I highly doubt its transformer is as big as they say on the website. If you read the manual, it's even bigger, a whopping 1.3 kVA!!

Again, those Halo amps are well built, but I am disappointed with their documentation that don't show the very important power supply specifications in a consistent (and accuracy?) fashion.

To add to your thoughts on Parasound:

Parasound power amplifiers use JFET's (small signal transistors) in their input stages. JFET's have much lower transcondance (current out/voltage in) than bi-polar transistors. Ultimately this means that Parasound power amplifiers have 10dB to 20dB MORE distortion than many other power amplifiers at the same price or less.

These sorts of JFET's are evidently no longer produced, but unfortunately Parasound seems to have a large supply. PS Audio also uses JFET's at least some of their amplifiers accompanied by the normal sorts of Paul McGowan claims.