No love for high end Audio Technica headphones?

[JJB70]

The ER4 SR is a superb product, I love mine. That said, the deep fit isn't for everyone. I use them for flying as aside from their very good, neutral sound quality they have tremendous passive noise isolation. I replaced some Sony 1000X wireless noise cancelling headphones with the Etymotics and find they are just as good for isolating noise, if anything they're better as they attenuate voices more effectively.

 

[JJB70]

Headphones were for many years an island of sanity in audio. A few companies made generally well made and reliable headphones which performed well at reasonable prices. It's not that long ago that the Sennheiser HD580 was recognised as being a high end model and pretty much as expensive as anyone needed to go. For years the HD600 /650, K701 /702 and DT770/880 formed a sort of trinity of go to headphones and although these models used to be a lot more expensive than they are now (the price of the AKG's and Beyerdynamic's is almost entry level now) they were never crazily expensive.
The last ten years has seen an explosion of expensive headphones, with prices increasing exponentially and a growth of typical audiophile snake oil like expensive cables. Some of the expensive models are beautifully made from premium materials, or come in deluxe packaging with fancy cases, offer trick features etc but for the most part I don't think they justify anything like their price if considering SQ. And in some cases the rush to make them feel expensive results in heavy and bulky headphones that are a pain to wear.
I sometimes think the manufacturers have a checklist. Expensive box and case - check. Expensive cable - check. Expensive materials - check. Trick industrial design - check. Start from a four figure price point and work up.
And it is replicated in headphone amplifiers and DACs. The audio DAC was commoditised years ago and JDS can provide pretty much SOTA headphone amplifier performance for $100 yet there is a proliferation of hugely expensive amplifiers and DACs. There is a review of a $2500 Violectric headphone amplifier elsewhere on the site, it appears to be well made apart from a loose volume knob but that's an awful lot for a headphone amplifier whichever way you look at it.
Obviously it's a free market and people are free to buy what they want but I find the transformation of the headphone scene into another patch of audiophile madness with the same culture of shill reviewers pushing snake oil and a culture of more expensive equals better to be rather sad. If looking at my own local market prices I really see no reason to go above about £400 if you just want some well made great performing headphones, and you don't need to spend that much.

 

[Frank Dernie]

My impression is that, before the headphone trend and craze hit and the mobility market exploded, manufacturers were doing their best at what would be seen very reasonable prices these days. Also, I have asked a couple of dealers to convince me to purchase a very high-end headset through listening tests. I failed to see the the value in a 10x to 15x price increase vs my HD580. Maybe a bit of improvement here and there, but nothing as drastic as what I noticed when I went for a then top of the line Shure E5c in ear (around 2005/2006? not sure).

I feel that, since the market demands it, there's a constant flow of new, supposedly enhanced models, and prices are climbing just because the market is there...

And yes, I am extremely happy with my ATH-ADG1X open back gaming headset. Very neutral and very clean. Not that expensive either as I grabbed it in an Amazon sale.

Indeed, the big thing that has changed since headphones have boomed to become a big thing is the very good ones from the past have got much cheaper, presumably because production volumes have exploded, and a whole new market for "reassuringly expensive" models have been released into what is really a fairly new rapidly growing market.

 

[Frank Dernie]

For years the HD600 /650, K701 /702 and DT770/880

I paid £500 for my 701s many years ago

 

[JJB70]

I really fancy a pair of AKG K712 headphones, at their current price point of £170 - 190 they are not expensive and remain a very comfortable and solid performing model.

 

[Buster]

I think the AKG 701-702 are having a similar sound stage as Seenheiser HD800.
I don't they are are just as good but if you are on a budget these headphones comes very close.

 

[nhunt]

I notice there seems to be very little discussion of the high end models made by Audio Technica, despite their more affordable models featuring regularly in discussions and some of their affordable models being quite ubiquitous. I have a pair of ATH MSR7's which I love, and I also loved the ATH R70X when I tried a pair and thought they offered great value. As you go up the scale it's like they don't exist. I remember the ATH AD2000X, at one time it was high end whereas in today's market it is looking more mid range, although I never bought a pair I liked them when I tried them. I never bought them as I felt the performance didn't match price but they were nevertheless nice but I think that is true of an awful lot of high end headphones. Anyone here with any of their high end models?

You made me think about this a bit. I think I might actually have developed a little bit of an unconscious bias going against Audio Technica because I just didn’t share the internets reaction to the M50 and especially the AD700x. Sort of the redditor inflicted version of anti Bose bias.

This is a very audio unscience review post but trying to be honest, heh.

 

[Veri]

You made me think about this a bit. I think I might actually have developed a little bit of an unconscious bias going against Audio Technica because I just didn’t share the internets reaction to the M50 and especially the AD700x. Sort of the redditor inflicted version of anti Bose bias.

This is a very audio unscience review post but trying to be honest, heh.

The AD700 were so, so good. Great value and sound. Someone on SBAF measured them and besides lowest and uppermost frequencies, they measure suprisingly flat too.
AD700x/900x were like their lesser, lower quality brothers :/ for shame.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I think the AKG 701-702 are having a similar sound stage as Seenheiser HD800.
I don't they are are just as good but if you are on a budget these headphones comes very close.

Interesting. I compared 701 and 800 not knowing their price and preferred the 701, though it was obvious the 800 would be dearer from the manufacturing quality. It didn't seem secure on y head either. I didn't buy...

 

[JJB70]

Interesting. I compared 701 and 800 not knowing their price and preferred the 701, though it was obvious the 800 would be dearer from the manufacturing quality. It didn't seem secure on y head either. I didn't buy...

I think that it would be very interesting if we could see reviews where the reviewer was genuinely ignorant about the price of what is being reviewed. It is difficult with headphones as it is difficult to do genuinely blind headphone tests but nevertheless it would be interesting to remove the expectation bias that comes with picking up something like a high end Sennheiser as I think that the link between headphone price and performance can be very tenuous.

 

[JJB70]

I finally managed to try some of these high end Audio Technica models, the ATH AD2000X and ATH W5000. Both use the wing system which is a bit marmite (an English colloquial expression meaning you either love it or hate it) but I found it fine. Both were very light, despite the W5000 using wooden cups which tend to be associated with heavier designs these are very light and with low clamping force. Build quality of both is superb, with very high quality materials throughout and very high standards of fit and finish. These are very expensive headphones but at least they have the good grace to feel expensive despite their light weight (it seems common to equate heaviness with quality, but it is more impressive to offer very high build quality and lightweight). The ATH W5000 comes in a very large hard case which looks pretty impressive on the outside but has a tacky red satin interior which looks like something out of a cheap boudoir. The slightly odd thing in todays market is that neither model has removable cables, given that neither is intended to be a mobile model it is probably not that big a deal but I'd still like replaceable cables on such expensive headphones as if paying this much you're not buying a throwaway item and ease of replacement if the cable does get damaged is desirable.
I'd like to see measurements for these headphones. I won't write reams of subjective nonsense, but I will say I liked the sound. Bass is restrained, treble slightly bright and mid range outstanding. How that impression would stand comparison with measurement I'd like to see. Overall they felt very smooth and despite the slightly emphasised treble and restrained bass I found them pretty relaxed and extremely well suited to classical (I mainly listen to orchestral and opera).
I'm not sure I'd buy a pair unless there was a stellar offer as they are expensive, but I rather liked them.

 

[solderdude]

AD-2000X
AD2000X
AD2000X
ATH-W5000
W5000

 

[LTig]

Headphones were for many years an island of sanity in audio. A few companies made generally well made and reliable headphones which performed well at reasonable prices. It's not that long ago that the Sennheiser HD580 was recognised as being a high end model and pretty much as expensive as anyone needed to go. For years the HD600 /650, K701 /702 and DT770/880 formed a sort of trinity of go to headphones and although these models used to be a lot more expensive than they are now (the price of the AKG's and Beyerdynamic's is almost entry level now) they were never crazily expensive.

I had a HD580 for about 20 years. When I bought it I needed one full hour to be able to decide between the Sennheiser and the AKG K500. They had the same price (some € 200) and very different sonic characters - the HD580 had a wonderful bass, the AKG was very open but had almost no bass.

The last ten years has seen an explosion of expensive headphones, with prices increasing exponentially and a growth of typical audiophile snake oil like expensive cables. Some of the expensive models are beautifully made from premium materials, or come in deluxe packaging with fancy cases, offer trick features etc but for the most part I don't think they justify anything like their price if considering SQ. And in some cases the rush to make them feel expensive results in heavy and bulky headphones that are a pain to wear.

5 years ago the HD580 got (again) contact problems and I decided to check a few new headphones, hoping that Sennheisers were more open or AKGs had more bass. In fact both was true. But I had serious problems with the K701's headband - it really hurt. The AKG812 had just been released and its headband was very good - but the weight was too high for me in the long run. Finally I bought the HD800 because it was the best to wear (although heavier than the HD580) and I thought that it's sound was more smooth then the K812. The HD800's cable is absolutely quiet (non microphonic) so I'd gladly pay a little more for it. However I payed € 1200 and SQ is not 6 times better than the HD580.

In the mean time I tried a few of the other highend models (Focal, LCD, ...) and they are all much to heavy and the force on the ears is too high.

[..]Obviously it's a free market and people are free to buy what they want but I find the transformation of the headphone scene into another patch of audiophile madness with the same culture of shill reviewers pushing snake oil and a culture of more expensive equals better to be rather sad. If looking at my own local market prices I really see no reason to go above about £400 if you just want some well made great performing headphones, and you don't need to spend that much.

Just now I wear an old Beyer Dynamic DT990 Pro (inherited) and its current price is below € 120. SQ when fed by the RME ADI-2 PRO fs is very good (filter setting: -3.5 dB at 75 Hz and Q=0.5). I'm wondering how much better the DT1990 Pro would be at almost 4 times the price.

 

[JJB70]

I find that my old HD580's still perform remarkably well relative to newer and more expensive headphones. So much so that I have never bought any of the newer HD6x0 models as I see no point while my 580's still work.
On the Beyerdynamic Dt1990, one thing I would say about that model is that it is a big step up in build quality from the cheaper Beyerdynamic models and is built like a tank while still being very comfortable, in fact it shames a lot of much more expensive headphones from trendy manufacturers. That's not a sound quality issue and doesn't affect the music but I do think that the quality justifies the price in this case. In our market they sell for £399 with b stock available for less and at that price I think that they are an excellent buy.

 

[Buster]

Interesting. I compared 701 and 800 not knowing their price and preferred the 701, though it was obvious the 800 would be dearer from the manufacturing quality. It didn't seem secure on y head either. I didn't buy...

my wife prefers the 701 above HD800.
You can get a 702 at Thomann for €111. Incredible value. https://www.thomann.de/nl/akg_k702.htm?sid=7b78ea0df61b675d602b7486f80ec4e7

 

[bravomail]

Ye. Massderp has AD2000 on sale from time to time. I saw some metal(digits) guy review of them on Youtube. It is not only wing system. It is also a lack of a hinge to turn the cup. Cup will always press your ear at an angle. And on top of that non-removable cable. Hard pass.
I'll take M40x at 80 anytime over AD2000 at 400.

 

[Veri]

Ye. Massderp has AD2000 on sale from time to time. I saw some metal(digits) guy review of them on Youtube. It is not only wing system. It is also a lack of a hinge to turn the cup. Cup will always press your ear at an angle. And on top of that non-removable cable. Hard pass.
I'll take M40x at 80 anytime over AD2000 at 400.

AD2000z right? AD2000 and AD2000x are totally different, to make it extra confusing...

 

[JJB70]

Yes, the Audio Technica nomenclature for identifying models isn't the simplest, that is one area where they could probably take a lesson from Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic or AKG.

On removable cables, it strikes me as odd that Audio Technica have never modified their older models as while I'm aware that modifying a design and production isn't as cheap and easy as some think, it would nevertheless be a pretty straightforward improvement and they have upgraded some of these designs in the past. I have zero interest in after market cables, no balanced, but if buying expensive headphones it is re-assuring to know that if you end up guillotining a cable or pulling it out it is simple and easy to replace by just buying a new one to plug in. They've adopted replaceable cables on newer models but they still offer a few models with fixed cables (although I suspect in some cases they are carrying remaining stock rather than manufacturing).

They seem to be abandoning the wing system, I'm split about that. On the one hand I think it is a sensible decision, on the other it is quite sad to see a different approach ditched by conforming to the norm.

 

[nhunt]

What do people here think of the R70x? Checking sonarworks it seems like the FR is close to the harman target, fwiw

 

[Veri]

What do people here think of the R70x? Checking sonarworks it seems like the FR is close to the harman target, fwiw

Distortion specs are not as competitive to HD600/HD650. But from a FR perspective they look very good indeed.

I think it is especially the comfort/wing system that makes them hit or miss.