Yes, so? Why doesn't that make sense as a part of a National Security Law?
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(No Debate) [Extreme Political] What you need to know about Hong Kong's new National Security Law
- Thread starter andymok
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Yes, so? Why doesn't that make sense as a part of a National Security Law?
It might make sense in China, but how can it not break the Sino-British Joint Declaration when the this law grant the unelected Hong Kong government unlimited power to arrest anyone and put them in a special court? (where judges are designated by the gov)
Checks and balances are the core of the rule of law and uphold the separation of powers.
Because the definitions of 'succesion', 'subversion' and 'terrorst activities' it's being applied to are so vague and wide-reaching they could be applicable to the most minor form of dissent against the Chinese or HK government, from anyone in the world.
For example, Article 29, section 5 says provoking "hatred among Hong Kong residents towards the Central People's Government or the Government of the Region, which is likely to cause serious consequences" is now a 'terrorist activity' and forbidden by anyone, in any country.
Can you name a law from any other country that asserts extraterritorial jurisdiction over non-residents of that country?
Last time I checked the Judiciary of HK was indeed an independent entity from the HK government. I don't think that has changed.
Yes, the National Security Law in my country (Greece) has similar reach. Just in case you know how to read Greek:
Άρθρο 7 - Ποινικός Κώδικας (Νόμος 4619/2019) - Εγκλήματα αλλοδαπών στην αλλοδαπή
1. Οι ελληνικοί ποινικοί νόμοι εφαρμόζονται και κατά αλλοδαπού για πράξη που τελέστηκε στην αλλοδαπή και χαρακτηρίζεται από αυτούς ως κακούργημα ή πλημμέλημα, αν η πράξη αυτή στρέφεται εναντίον Έλληνα πολίτη και είναι αξιόποινη, με τα συγκεκριμένα χαρακτηριστικά της, και κατά τους νόμους της χώρας όπου τελέστηκε ή αν διαπράχθηκε σε πολιτειακά ασύντακτη χώρα. Ως Έλληνας πολίτης για την εφαρμογή του προηγούμενου εδαφίου λογίζεται και το κυοφορούμενο που θα αποκτήσει με τη γέννησή του την ελληνική ιθαγένεια, καθώς και τα νομικά πρόσωπα που εδρεύουν στην ημεδαπή.
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I studied Ancient Greek so I can read the words but the meaning escapes me.
No I don't, but Google does:
"Article 7 - Penal Code (Law 4619/2019) - Crimes of foreigners abroad
1. Greek criminal law also applies to foreigners for an act committed abroad and is characterized by them as a crime or misdemeanor, if this act is directed against a Greek citizen and is criminal, with its specific characteristics, and according to the laws of the country where carried out or if committed in a state-owned state. As a Greek citizen for the implementation of the previous paragraph is considered the pregnant woman who will acquire Greek citizenship with his birth, as well as the legal entities that are based in the country."
This doesn't even come close to the scope of the new HK law, which is not limited to acts directed against HK citizens but against the HK and Chinese governments via just 'provoking hatred', and makes no reference to applying the law 'according to the laws of the country where it was carried out' as Greek law does. There's no equivalence here.
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You should check again.
- Hong Kong's chief executive will have the power to appoint judges to hear national security cases, raising fears about judicial autonomy
- Importantly, Beijing will have power over how the law should be interpreted, not any Hong Kong judicial or policy body. If the law conflicts with any Hong Kong law, the Beijing law takes priority
- Some trials will be heard behind closed doors.
- This office can send some cases to be tried in mainland China - but Beijing has said it will only have that power over a "tiny number" of cases
Corrected. That doesn't change my other points which still apply. It says Greek criminal law is only applicable to foreigners abroad if it's an act against a Greek citizen, and that act is also criminal under the laws of the country in which it was committed. The new HK law has no such provisions.
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No, you are not reading it right (or, better, Google does not translate that adequately). Anyway, you can take my word for it, or do some research on other English-speaking countries of the West. I have a feeling that you will be surprised.
Or you could just translate it. This is all besides the point anyway. The point is the new HK law is attempting to stifle dissent of the Chinese government by anyone, anywhere in the world. If you don't see that as problematic for freedom of speech, press, protest and political opposition I'm not sure what to say.
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Shorty
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You should check again: it has changed. Judges in Hong Kong will in future be appointed by government, at least the judges who will reside over cases under the new law.
Furthermore, Beijing invented the ‘Bureau for the Defense of National Security’ in HK, a Chinese state organisation. Its HK twin is called the ‘Committee for National Security‘, and will be led by the HK Chief Executive, under authority of Beijing. These two organisations will function as a secret police: they will be monitoring social media, universities, schools, pro-democratic activists etc.. They can prosecute, and trials can take place in HK as well as in mainland China.
To me article 38 you mentioned makes complete sense. I guess because I love my country, and you are not trusting yours. That's a whole different story, though.
Anyway, as I already mentioned, I live in HK for a good 10 years now. Only time will tell if the law will be abused or not.
Time has tell. Look at the promise made by China government in Sino-British Joint Declaration and look at Hong Kong now.
Article 22
No department of the Central People's Government and no province, autonomous region, or municipality directly under the Central Government may interfere in the affairs which the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region administers on its own in accordance with this Law.
When a law doesn't fit China's needs, they creates a new law to override it. How respectful.
As far as I know the agreement reached in the 1980s (1985 I think) for the handover in 1997 was for 50 years.
This is the agreement that has been broken less than half way through. Colonial rule was usually worse than what came afterwards but not always..
I'm at a loss to understand how a few folks here can defend the Chicoms. <smh>
EXCLUSIVE: Chinese virologist accuses Beijing of coronavirus cover-up, flees Hong Kong: 'I know how they treat whistleblowers'
https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinese-virologist-coronavirus-cover-up-flee-hong-kong-whistleblower
EXCLUSIVE: Chinese virologist accuses Beijing of coronavirus cover-up, flees Hong Kong: 'I know how they treat whistleblowers'
https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinese-virologist-coronavirus-cover-up-flee-hong-kong-whistleblower
- Thread Starter
- #119
I guess we could again use some time out
I dont care what is written, how it’s written or where it‘s written, in times where everything is post and “interpreted” they are simply irrelevant.
All we care are what was executed and how it was executed. Effects, perception is reality, people.
I dont care what is written, how it’s written or where it‘s written, in times where everything is post and “interpreted” they are simply irrelevant.
All we care are what was executed and how it was executed. Effects, perception is reality, people.
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Seems pretty bizarre to me for someone to simultaneously love the country of their birth and the cradle of democracy, yet not care when any pretence of democracy, self-determination and automony is being eroded in front of their eyes from the place they're living in.
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