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New to audio...looking for a push in the right direction (regarding my setup)

mxw031

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Hello, I am new on this forum and to audio equipment in general. I will try to be concise. I have done a bit of reading here and there and am working to familiarize myself with vocabulary and general concepts. As most reading this likely know it is a real rabbit hole.

I have always enjoyed going to live shows and appreciating a variety of music. I have seen a lot of live music shows hosting Funktion 1 sound systems that led me down a path of enjoying music and sound. Recently I bought my first home system. I am a novice and my equipment is limited but I am wanting to learn more and optimize it.

Currently I am running a pair of Canton Chrono 70 speakers which I purchased used. I am running them with a Denon AVR-590 receiver that someone gave to me a while ago. My room is somewhere between 250-300 square feet, have not measured it exactly. I primarily use wifi to play music from my phone through a Google Chromecast Audio connected through aux to my AVR. I am mostly interested in listening to music with my system but if eventually I can use it for movies too then that would be a welcome addition although not really a priority of mine. Eventually I intend to add a subwoofer as much of the music I listen to has complex bass that I enjoy. I have read about the SVS SB-1000 pro and think it would be good eventually for my budget and needs.

My question currently is regarding my receiver/amplifier. It is somewhat clear to me that my AVR is limiting me from getting the full experience from my speakers. They are the first speakers I have owned other than a small bluetooth speaker so really they sound amazing to me but I know that they could sound better. My issue is that there is just so much information out there regarding receivers/AVRs/stereo amplifiers/etc. that I am somewhat overwhelmed regarding where to start. I have read through this thread (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-stereo-amplifier-with-bass-management.22583/) regarding comparing stereo amplifiers and AVRs as it pertains to bass specifically and found information within that thread to be informative though still unclear regarding some things.

Can someone either recommend a receiver or provide perspective on where I should begin to identify what might work for my situation? I am somewhat limited on funds for more equipment currently so could either spend between $300-$500 now or wait until I have saved more in the future if that is what would be the most logical path forward. Below are the questions I currently have specifically:

1. My understanding is that the benefit of an AVR beyond the video support component is the various features such as having crossover frequency support which will be useful when I have a subwoofer, and the "room correction" settings. Is this accurate? Can these things also be gathered from a stereo amplifier and another piece of equipment in a cohesive and approachable (cost/learning curve) manner?

2. Is there any benefit to having a stereo amplifier instead of an AVR? I know this is a common question/debate so if needed I can try searching through older posts. I do not intend to run surround sound so for now am planning to just run my two speakers and a subwoofer (when I can purchase one).

3. Someone on a subreddit that I posted this question on suggested that I get a stereo amplifier that can drive 100watts per channel, and to be sure that it is rated to 4 ohms (they said this as they viewed my Canton speakers as being "inefficient", meaning that they need more power and are rated at 4ohms. Does this sound right?

4. I also understand that having some way to EQ my speakers, as well as having settings for crossover frequency will be important once I have a subwoofer. Is this accurate?

5. Is my Denon AVR-590 safe to run my speakers with for the time being? It reads as being rated for 6 or 8ohms (if I am reading the manual correctly) and my speakers are listed as 4-8ohms (I think). I have been running them for a month or so with this Denon and they sound fine and quite capable.

6. When my current Denon was given to me it did not have the microphone with it, so I have not done the Audyssey room correction setup on it. Currently the only settings I have are for the speakers to be set to Large due to me not having a subwoofer, and I have the distance set between the speakers and my listening position. Would it be worth ordering a replacement microphone to go through the Audyssey EQ setup for the time that I am using the Denon that I have?

7. With these things in mind, can anyone provide perspective regarding what type of receiver I should begin looking at? Or perhaps my current Denon is capable I just need to use the settings more effectively? (such as through the Audyssey EQ)

Any and all help or perspective is greatly appreciated. I know I have asked lots of questions, so even having one or two answered would be helpful to me. I have really enjoyed learning so far and am looking forward to knowing more. I am glad to have found this forum. Thanks.
 

NTK

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Welcome to ASR!
  1. Yes. All (almost?) AVRs have bass management (integrating subwoofer into the system) and some type of room EQ. The room EQ capabilities and flexibility of the entry level ones may not be very good. If I were in your situation, I'd probably save up to increase my budget. It isn't too easy to "grow" a 2-channel system into a multi-channel system. You should be able to reuse 2-channel sources and speakers, but if you have a 2-channel integrated amplifier, it will likely become redundant.
  2. If you are going to stick with 2 channel, there are good options for 2-channel room EQ and bass management. 2-channel gear usually offer higher performance than multi-channel gear. In particular, 2-channel speaker amplifiers are usually more robust than the ones in AV receivers.
  3. Probably correct if you like to listen to your Canton at high volume.
  4. Yes. You need to do that to get the very best performance out of your (or any) system.
  5. Yes, it should be. If your Cantons sound fine to you, and your Denon doesn't over-heat (also see #3), then you are AOK.
  6. No idea how capable the auto-setup of your version of Audyssey is, but am guessing not very. I would recommend getting a MiniDSP Umik-1 and learn how to use it with REW (Room EQ Wizard, a free software). They are tremendously useful and will stay so in the long run. I think newer units (both 2 channel and multi-channel) with more modern versions of room EQ software and more powerful DSP hardware should be able to outperform your Denon's room EQ easily. I would only get the Denon replacement mic if it is really cheap, since I doubt it is useful for anything else.
  7. Your Denon is probably serviceable for the time being, given you don't want to spend more than $500 at this time. I'd think you should think about if you want a 2 channel system or a multi-channel system. (Finding room for the speakers in a multi-channel system is not a trivial problem.)
 
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mxw031

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Welcome to ASR!

  1. No idea how capable the auto-setup of your version of Audyssey is, but am guessing not very. I would recommend getting a MiniDSP Umik-1 and learn how to use it with REW (Room EQ Wizard, a free software). They are tremendously useful and will stay so in the long run. I think newer units (both 2 channel and multi-channel) with more modern versions of room EQ software and more powerful DSP hardware should be able to outperform your Denon's room EQ easily. I would only get the Denon replacement mic if it is really cheap, since I doubt it is useful for anything else.
  2. Your Denon is probably serviceable for the time being, given you don't want to spend more than $500 at this time. I'd think you should think about if you want a 2 channel system or a multi-channel system. (Finding room for the speakers in a multi-channel system is not a trivial problem.)

Thank you for your reply! I will keep all of that in mind moving forward. It does sound like for now using my current AVR and trying to optimize its use while learning more and getting an idea of my needs and budget is going to be my best option.

I read about the Umik-1 and REW and it seems very interesting. I do see when reading through my manual for the AVR that there is an option to do a Manual EQ at different frequencies. If I utilize the Umik-1 and REW would it help to guide me in EQing my system as well, or is that a separate process and the REW is more for a different purpose? I'm attaching a screenshot of the part of the manual I am referencing.

I have seen some apps for my phone or laptop with parametric EQing but am wondering if using the Manual EQ on my AVR would be better for some reason. Any thoughts on this?

Thank you again.
 

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NTK

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If you can have parametric EQ's at your music source (e.g. using Equalizer APO or through your music app), that will be far better than the manual EQ of your Denon.

From the owner's manual, manual EQ is just a 9 band graphic EQ with a fixed but unknown width of the frequency range being adjusted (i.e. Q of the EQ filter). A 9 band graphic EQ is far from sufficient to give the necessary precision and flexibility to effectively equalize your room (and speakers if you have their quasi-anechoic measurements, which, if not available, with some effort you can measure yourself using time gated measurements with REW and Umik).
 
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mxw031

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If you can have parametric EQ's at your music source (e.g. using Equalizer APO or through your music app), that will be far better than the manual EQ of your Denon.

Thank you, this is helpful to me, I did not understand at first the idea of the width of the band being relevant but it makes sense now. I appreciate your replies.
 
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mxw031

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If you can have parametric EQ's at your music source (e.g. using Equalizer APO or through your music app), that will be far better than the manual EQ of your Denon.

From the owner's manual, manual EQ is just a 9 band graphic EQ with a fixed but unknown width of the frequency range being adjusted (i.e. Q of the EQ filter). A 9 band graphic EQ is far from sufficient to give the necessary precision and flexibility to effectively equalize your room (and speakers if you have their quasi-anechoic measurements, which, if not available, with some effort you can measure yourself using time gated measurements with REW and Umik).
So I found a free app with parametric eqing for my laptop and have been using that instead of the manual eq on my receiver and my speakers sound significantly better than before. Thank you.

I went and read about REW and using it with the Umik, and watched a helpful video. I understand how I would use it to create a room correcting filter eq.

However, currently I am using an older MacBook a friend gave me. I intend to get a PC eventually but for now am using this Mac. I see that REW is available for Mac, but equalizer APO is not. I know that I'll have to have an equalizer that allows me to load the REW-generated correction filter into it in order for it to be useful, such as using the "configurator" function I saw in the video I watched.

Do you know of any way I can do this on a Mac? The current eq app I found for free does not seem to have this function. I will continue searching the forum but figured I would ask.
 

HarmonicTHD

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So I found a free app with parametric eqing for my laptop and have been using that instead of the manual eq on my receiver and my speakers sound significantly better than before. Thank you.

I went and read about REW and using it with the Umik, and watched a helpful video. I understand how I would use it to create a room correcting filter eq.

However, currently I am using an older MacBook a friend gave me. I intend to get a PC eventually but for now am using this Mac. I see that REW is available for Mac, but equalizer APO is not. I know that I'll have to have an equalizer that allows me to load the REW-generated correction filter into it in order for it to be useful, such as using the "configurator" function I saw in the video I watched.

Do you know of any way I can do this on a Mac? The current eq app I found for free does not seem to have this function. I will continue searching the forum but figured I would ask.
Maybe this helps. (I use PC, sorry don’t know what works best for Mac)


But why don’t you use the RoomEQ from your Denon AVR (Audyssey)? (Audyssey is an automatic parametric EQ built in and can be adjusted by eg the Audyssey App or the MultiEQX app, which even allows REW imports. I am not talking about the also built in band EQ which you mentioned above). Which Denon do you have?
 

voodooless

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But why don’t you use the RoomEQ from your Denon AVR (Audyssey)? (Audyssey is an automatic parametric EQ built in and can be adjusted by eg the Audyssey App or the MultiEQX app, which even allows REW imports. I am not talking about the also built in band EQ which you mentioned above). Which Denon do you have?
His Denon already has Multi-EQ, so if the microphone that came with it is still available, this should be easy to setup. Consequently it will also have bass management.

See how you like it first before spending any money.
 

notsodeadlizard

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Hello, I am new on this forum and to audio equipment in general. I will try to be concise. I have done a bit of reading here and there and am working to familiarize myself with vocabulary and general concepts. As most reading this likely know it is a real rabbit hole.

I have always enjoyed going to live shows and appreciating a variety of music. I have seen a lot of live music shows hosting Funktion 1 sound systems that led me down a path of enjoying music and sound. Recently I bought my first home system. I am a novice and my equipment is limited but I am wanting to learn more and optimize it.

Currently I am running a pair of Canton Chrono 70 speakers which I purchased used. I am running them with a Denon AVR-590 receiver that someone gave to me a while ago. My room is somewhere between 250-300 square feet, have not measured it exactly. I primarily use wifi to play music from my phone through a Google Chromecast Audio connected through aux to my AVR. I am mostly interested in listening to music with my system but if eventually I can use it for movies too then that would be a welcome addition although not really a priority of mine. Eventually I intend to add a subwoofer as much of the music I listen to has complex bass that I enjoy. I have read about the SVS SB-1000 pro and think it would be good eventually for my budget and needs.

My question currently is regarding my receiver/amplifier. It is somewhat clear to me that my AVR is limiting me from getting the full experience from my speakers. They are the first speakers I have owned other than a small bluetooth speaker so really they sound amazing to me but I know that they could sound better. My issue is that there is just so much information out there regarding receivers/AVRs/stereo amplifiers/etc. that I am somewhat overwhelmed regarding where to start. I have read through this thread (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-stereo-amplifier-with-bass-management.22583/) regarding comparing stereo amplifiers and AVRs as it pertains to bass specifically and found information within that thread to be informative though still unclear regarding some things.

Can someone either recommend a receiver or provide perspective on where I should begin to identify what might work for my situation? I am somewhat limited on funds for more equipment currently so could either spend between $300-$500 now or wait until I have saved more in the future if that is what would be the most logical path forward. Below are the questions I currently have specifically:

1. My understanding is that the benefit of an AVR beyond the video support component is the various features such as having crossover frequency support which will be useful when I have a subwoofer, and the "room correction" settings. Is this accurate? Can these things also be gathered from a stereo amplifier and another piece of equipment in a cohesive and approachable (cost/learning curve) manner?

2. Is there any benefit to having a stereo amplifier instead of an AVR? I know this is a common question/debate so if needed I can try searching through older posts. I do not intend to run surround sound so for now am planning to just run my two speakers and a subwoofer (when I can purchase one).

3. Someone on a subreddit that I posted this question on suggested that I get a stereo amplifier that can drive 100watts per channel, and to be sure that it is rated to 4 ohms (they said this as they viewed my Canton speakers as being "inefficient", meaning that they need more power and are rated at 4ohms. Does this sound right?

4. I also understand that having some way to EQ my speakers, as well as having settings for crossover frequency will be important once I have a subwoofer. Is this accurate?

5. Is my Denon AVR-590 safe to run my speakers with for the time being? It reads as being rated for 6 or 8ohms (if I am reading the manual correctly) and my speakers are listed as 4-8ohms (I think). I have been running them for a month or so with this Denon and they sound fine and quite capable.

6. When my current Denon was given to me it did not have the microphone with it, so I have not done the Audyssey room correction setup on it. Currently the only settings I have are for the speakers to be set to Large due to me not having a subwoofer, and I have the distance set between the speakers and my listening position. Would it be worth ordering a replacement microphone to go through the Audyssey EQ setup for the time that I am using the Denon that I have?

7. With these things in mind, can anyone provide perspective regarding what type of receiver I should begin looking at? Or perhaps my current Denon is capable I just need to use the settings more effectively? (such as through the Audyssey EQ)

Any and all help or perspective is greatly appreciated. I know I have asked lots of questions, so even having one or two answered would be helpful to me. I have really enjoyed learning so far and am looking forward to knowing more. I am glad to have found this forum. Thanks.
1. There is such a benefit, but it is useless in practice.
2. If you don't plan on "multichannel" sound, it's best to use a regular stereo integrated amplifier instead of an AVR. Simple logic dictates that if 2 channels of amplification cost as much as 6 channels, they are somewhat better made.
3. It's hard to find an amplifier these days that only handles an 8 ohm load. Even if this is some very cheap Pioneer, which does not have a word about a 4 ohm load in the datasheet, it will work without problems. You will never have 100 watts of output power, no one listens to music at such powers.
4. You have great (even formidable) speakers. Add an adequate amplifier to them, you don't need astronomical power output, you are not going to jam enemies with this equipment. EQ will only make things worse. In all senses. Instead of listening to music, you will adjust the equalizer, achieving either some kind of "objective" obscure nonsense, or inexplicable and elusive subjective perfection. Equalizers were all the rage in the 1980s because they look nice in a rack :)
5. Your Denon will still work. This is not the best device, but you already have it. For now, listen to music with it and decide what exactly you don't like about what you hear. If you like everything - come to such forums only in the "who listens to what" section.
6. If I were you, I would just forget about it. Once and for all. Invest in speakers. And arrange them by ear as you like. Even such ancient, cheap and somewhat unusual speakers like the Bose 401, if moved and twisted, can sound very pretty. What can we say about your Chrono 70.
7. Listen to music, not to forums.
 

sonder

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I primarily use wifi to play music from my phone through a Google Chromecast Audio connected through aux to my AVR.

sanity checking: How's that CCA connected, toslink/optical or RCA/3.5mm? if either of the latter have you turned on "Full Dynamic Range" in the CCA's settings within home app?

also what service are you streaming from?
 
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mxw031

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sanity checking: How's that CCA connected, toslink/optical or RCA/3.5mm? if either of the latter have you turned on "Full Dynamic Range" in the CCA's settings within home app?

also what service are you streaming from?
Not sure what toslink/optical is I will have to read about that. I have it connected through a 3.5mm cable. I do have full dynamic range selected in the CCA settings and noticed a significant improvement when doing that. Since posting this however I have switched to using my macbook pro (it's from like 2010) to play directly through 3.5mm cable so that I can use the EQ app I have found. Not sure which is better but having option to EQ has sounded like an improvement to my ears.

I am streaming from Spotify but also have downloaded flac and other audio files I play from my computer or phone through VLC media player.
 
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mxw031

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Maybe this helps. (I use PC, sorry don’t know what works best for Mac)


But why don’t you use the RoomEQ from your Denon AVR (Audyssey)? (Audyssey is an automatic parametric EQ built in and can be adjusted by eg the Audyssey App or the MultiEQX app, which even allows REW imports. I am not talking about the also built in band EQ which you mentioned above). Which Denon do you have?
Thanks for your reply, that post you linked is helpful and I have read some of the suggested apps, but still not sure which ones may be able to use the configured result filter of a REW/Umik-1 assessment. I have a Denon AVR-590. Slightly old and seems underpowered but it was free and is working for now. It does not have the Audyssey app functionality of MultiEQx and it unfortunately did not come with the microphone in order for me to use the room correction that it does have.
 
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mxw031

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His Denon already has Multi-EQ, so if the microphone that came with it is still available, this should be easy to setup. Consequently it will also have bass management.

See how you like it first before spending any money.
Unfortunately it did not have the microphone with it when it was given to me, so I'm trying to determine if it's worth ordering the replacement or just waiting till I can upgrade to a better receiver/amplifier. So far I'm leaning toward the latter.
 

sonder

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Not sure what toslink/optical is I will have to read about that. I have it connected through a 3.5mm cable. I do have full dynamic range selected in the CCA settings and noticed a significant improvement when doing that. Since posting this however I have switched to using my macbook pro (it's from like 2010) to play directly through 3.5mm cable so that I can use the EQ app I have found. Not sure which is better but having option to EQ has sounded like an improvement to my ears.

I am streaming from Spotify but also have downloaded flac and other audio files I play from my computer or phone through VLC media player.

Honestly, for your setup, the cheapest re-usable instant upgrade is to get a decent DAC like a "Topping E30 II" (150ish), connect the macbook to it via the usb wire (included) then RCA out to your existing setup. Also perhaps have a free trial of roon and qoboz together. That way you're streaming the highest available quality FLAC's through a high grade new chipped dac, from there you'll know where the weak points are and what to upgrade next. Since it's a tiny component you can slot it in to any future setup, but also find out just what you currently have is capable of. Whatever path you take from there, the E30 II will have you covered as it has coax, usb, and optical inputs, and balanced + rca out.

That is, step 1 could/should be getting your analogue output from digital up to scratch. Otherwise how can you know if or what to upgrade.
 
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mxw031

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Honestly, for your setup, the cheapest re-usable instant upgrade is to get a decent DAC like a "Topping E30 II" (150ish), connect the macbook to it via the usb wire (included) then RCA out to your existing setup. Also perhaps have a free trial of roon and qoboz together. That way you're streaming the highest available quality FLAC's through a high grade new chipped dac, from there you'll know where the weak points are and what to upgrade next. Since it's a tiny component you can slot it in to any future setup, but also find out just what you currently have is capable of. Whatever path you take from there, the E30 II will have you covered as it has coax, usb, and optical inputs, and balanced + rca out.

That is, step 1 could/should be getting your analogue output from digital up to scratch. Otherwise how can you know if or what to upgrade.
This is interesting, thanks for your perspective. Honestly I'll have to do more reading about DACs to fully understand what they are and how they fit into the system, but I think I understand what you're saying. After doing some reading today I ordered an RSL Speedwoofer sub to add to my speakers so think I am covered for speakers now and will shift attention toward my audio inputs and my receiver itself to try to learn to improve that side of things. I'll check out the Topping DAC.
 

sonder

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This is interesting, thanks for your perspective. Honestly I'll have to do more reading about DACs to fully understand what they are and how they fit into the system, but I think I understand what you're saying. After doing some reading today I ordered an RSL Speedwoofer sub to add to my speakers so think I am covered for speakers now and will shift attention toward my audio inputs and my receiver itself to try to learn to improve that side of things. I'll check out the Topping DAC.
No problem, I've been down this route myself over recent months.

A very short, intro. DAC = Digital to Analogue converter. Basically things like chromecast have an aged $2 chip in them, most high street stuff have rubbish ones, even cambridge audio dacmagic's have 5 year old $15 chips in them.

Fast forward, there are several makers, but ESS and AKM are commonly found in well reviewed devices here. ESS Sabre and AKM Velvet ranges. Both have a slightly different sound signature, and both are great at their top level of chip grades.

Rewind to the $300+ dacmagic with the $15 chips 5 year old chips, the E30 II has the second best new AKM Velvet chip in it, and not just one, two of them, and costs $150. So you're buying several generations of newer tech. Note this chip is in other devices, I'm just mentioning it specifically because I have one, and it was quite a transformation. There are "better" and you can budget in to four figures. but with something like this, a single or dual chipped modern dac either ess or akm, you're jumping forwards in technology by literal years, and getting flagship devices which go in expensive dealer network devices that cost exponentially more.

So, these little modern DACs do the work of transforming the digital to a high quality analogue signal, then you match up other bits of your puzzle to it (inputs, if digital) -> dac -> amplification -> speakers.

Hope that helps you, or somebody reading in the future, a little bit.
 

BDWoody

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Honestly I'll have to do more reading about DACs to fully understand what they are and how they fit into the system,

They've been mostly built into systems for decades now, and I doubt most could tell the difference between the DAC built into my 20 year old processor and whatever modern fancy DAC you want to compare it against. I've done blind/level matched comparisons between that processor and maybe 6 others from older to newer, and I couldn't ever tell the difference.

You could get an optical/toslink cable (with the mini-toslink on one end), and use that with your ChromecastAudio right into the optical in on your receiver (It plugs into the same place on the CCA the analog cable plugs in). If you are using any room correction from the receiver, any analog input will just be sampled/digitized anyway, so might as well skip the outboard DAC.

It can be hard to wade through all the nonsense out there, but take your time and do plenty of reading now that you've stumbled across this place. It could save you a lot of time and money as the whole process becomes demystified. Put your money into where either you know there is an existing problem, or where you know you can get an obvious upgrade (speakers for the most part). Electronics shouldn't take up a lot of your time.
 
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mxw031

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They've been mostly built into systems for decades now, and I doubt most could tell the difference between the DAC built into my 20 year old processor and whatever modern fancy DAC you want to compare it against. I've done blind/level matched comparisons between that processor and maybe 6 others from older to newer, and I couldn't ever tell the difference.

You could get an optical/toslink cable (with the mini-toslink on one end), and use that with your ChromecastAudio right into the optical in on your receiver (It plugs into the same place on the CCA the analog cable plugs in). If you are using any room correction from the receiver, any analog input will just be sampled/digitized anyway, so might as well skip the outboard DAC.

It can be hard to wade through all the nonsense out there, but take your time and do plenty of reading now that you've stumbled across this place. It could save you a lot of time and money as the whole process becomes demystified. Put your money into where either you know there is an existing problem, or where you know you can get an obvious upgrade (speakers for the most part). Electronics shouldn't take up a lot of your time.
This makes sense to me. Thanks for your input. I am not familiar with "optical in". I am attaching a picture from the manual for my receiver, if you have time or see this could you glance at it and tell me if I have that capability on my receiver? It's an older hand-me-down so I'm still learning what it can and can't do. It's a Denon AVR 590.
 

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BDWoody

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. I am not familiar with "optical in". I am attaching a picture from the manual for my receiver, if you have time or see this could you glance at it and tell me if I have that capability on my receiver?

You would take a toslink cable that has one side with the mini tos tip or an adapter:
0309231732.jpg

Plug the skinny end into the same hole you'd plug your analog cable into.

0309231732a.jpg


Then plug the fat end into one of these inputs on your receiver.

Screen Shot 2023-03-09 at 4.23.47 PM~2.png

And then select that input from your remote or input selector. That's it.
 
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