New phono cart needed

[copperblue]

Interesting article about VTA here: https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html
Tl;dr - it's maybe not as important as one thinks.
It's also accepted that ML stylus profiles are a little more tolerant of overhang - not being as prone to IGD as spherical or elliptical profiles.
The deal sealer is that, when swapping between C, NE and ML stylii on my VM95, worn records sound a lot better to me with the ML profile.
Sure they're worn records but the ML really digs into the detail as a listening event; the C presents them as worn old LPs.
Other opinions are available etc.

 

[dlaloum]

Interesting article about VTA here: https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html
Tl;dr - it's maybe not as important as one thinks.
It's also accepted that ML stylus profiles are a little more tolerant of overhang - not being as prone to IGD as spherical or elliptical profiles.
The deal sealer is that, when swapping between C, NE and ML stylii on my VM95, worn records sound a lot better to me with the ML profile.
Sure they're worn records but the ML really digs into the detail as a listening event; the C presents them as worn old LPs.
Other opinions are available etc.

The center of the contact patch on all the styli is at the same height up the groove... so on all records that will be the area of maximum wear - with conicals that is what you "read"... eliptical and ML have a more extended patch in the vertical sense - so they read above and below the wear area - for elipticals this is so marginal as to be mostly irrelevent, but once you get to HE's, Shibatas and ML's it is enough to allow them to read the "virgin" unworn vinyl...

So yeah, if you have older vinyl, line contact styli are absolute gold!

 

[AaronJ]

The spherical stylus cannot track higher frequencies ... and the wear from a sperical stylus is much increased on both stylus and record (due to limited contact surface area - the same force is applied over a smaller area causing wear) - also the higher frequencies where the spherical is unable to maintain contact with the groove wall due to the narrowness of the corrugations being smaller than the width of the contact patch, will cause the stylus to "skip" those corrugations - and as it lands, it will damage the vinyl surface wherever it lands - the frequencies it rolls off, as a result, will tend to be "permanently" rolled off - hence substantially increased wear of the entire frequency band, although kicked off by the higher frequencies. Mistracking, always increases wear by an order of magnitude... and a spherical stylus will always mistrack higher frequencies... it cannot do otherwise.

Alignment issues are massively reduced of course. (there is a definite ease of use benefit!)
Picking up dirt that is deep in the groove is another pure myth ultimately the tip of the stylus (regardless of the cut) ends up at around the same depth, the sophisticated cuts just provide a long narrow contact patch, with a larger surface area on the side). - And proper cleaning is always the best solution... but choosing a stylus that rolls off the frequencies that include much of the noise is another alternative

This is good information. For whatever reason the spherical is quieter and if it’s a result of frequency roll off associated with mistracking due to dirt and grime then I’m happy with it. There was a time I would swap out the Denon with the V15V-MR on newer records but I honestly couldn’t tell the difference in performance in an uncontrolled environment which is why I ultimately gave it up.

And your primary concern about being constantly neurotic about setup of ML styli... certainly isn't a comment associated with performance!

I never said anything about ML performance. Of course they perform incredibly well when set up properly, but using one had a significant effect on my own user experience.

Reduced mass of MC cartridge?!? - typically MC cartridges are heavier than MM/MI cartridges, and they track at higher tracking forces.

The claims of reduced tip mass for MC cartridges, are a complete myth - as the cartridges with the lowest tip mass ever recorded were all MM's!! (Technics EPC100mk4)

A spherical stylus is a relatively lo-fi answer to a question that primarily is focused on ease of use.

Fair enough. The imperceivable difference between ML and spherical easily tips the scales in favor of ease of use.

If it rocks you boat, that's great.

My boat is nicely rocked. We are all looking for the most enjoyable solutions and hopefully we have both found them.

 

[dlaloum]

This is good information. For whatever reason the spherical is quieter and if it’s a result of frequency roll off associated with mistracking due to dirt and grime then I’m happy with it. There was a time I would swap out the Denon with the V15V-MR on newer records but I honestly couldn’t tell the difference in performance in an uncontrolled environment which is why I ultimately gave it up.

well the V15VMR would cause less wear, but on the other hand, the MR stylus could "read" past the wear patch, and would make many old records sound almost like new... If you were looking for an audible difference, it would most likely be maximally audible on old records rather than new ones!

I never said anything about ML performance. Of course they perform incredibly well when set up properly, but using one had a significant effect on my own user experience.

Fair enough. The imperceivable difference between ML and spherical easily tips the scales in favor of ease of use.

My boat is nicely rocked. We are all looking for the most enjoyable solutions and hopefully we have both found them.

I think you were just overthinking it - yes it requires a bit more effort in setup, but lots of people (and in this case possibly you) get terribly hung up on achieving perfection...
I think that whatever adjustment you make for the Denon, would result in perfectly good results with the Shure... unless you are way off (which I doubt)

I fitted a T4P mount to my revox linatrack to make life easier - I can swap cartridges in and out, and no adjustments are needed (once the initial adjustment to T4P had been made)

I have the P mount versions of the OM ortofon, and the Shure V15V as well as the Shure M97 - and a wide range of others.

But yeah it need not be that difficult - Linear tracking TT's can remove much of the complications... as can T4P turntables, although high quality ones of those need to be sought out in the vintage marketplaces! Or you can fit a T4P adaptor you a standard arm, adjust it once, and then stick to T4P cartridges.

Life needn't be difficult to enjoy records!

 

[AaronJ]

well the V15VMR would cause less wear, but on the other hand, the MR stylus could "read" past the wear patch, and would make many old records sound almost like new... If you were looking for an audible difference, it would most likely be maximally audible on old records rather than new ones!

This is definitely true about reading past the worn part I won’t disagree there. I do have to be careful to examine records for groove wear. To me the spherical has less background noise than the MR on used records, sounds about the same on new records, and the MR produces more clarity on worn records. Once you know what to look for with regard to groove wear it’s pretty easy to avoid though.

 

[dlaloum]

This is definitely true about reading past the worn part I won’t disagree there. I do have to be careful to examine records for groove wear. To me the spherical has less background noise than the MR on used records, sounds about the same on new records, and the MR produces more clarity on worn records. Once you know what to look for with regard to groove wear it’s pretty easy to avoid though.

For noise on records... my excessive OCD treatment is as follows (I skip multiple steps if the record is in better condition):

1) Enzymatic Wash / Treatment (finish with clean vac on the vac machine)
2) Ultrasonic Wash
3) Treatment with ArmorAll
(this step is contentious, but a very very light armorall treatment provides several things, it includes re-plasticisers, as old vinyl often loses some of its plasticity, it actus as a lubricant, reducing friction, and it tends to, over a period of time, creep between embeded grit/dust and the vinyl surface within which it is embedded, causing it to release! The creep release process takes at least a few days... a week is good)
4) Final Ultrasonic Wash
5) Last Preservative Treatment

The full treatment can take a couple of weeks, and I do batches going through the steps... this is definitely an OCD type process!

It can however be astoundingly effective with some older records. - It won't remove wear, but you can read past that with a ML stylus...

 

[Balle Clorin]

I wash mine in the sink…

 

[antcollinet]

View attachment 370333I wash mine in the sink…

With a brillo pad?

 

[Balle Clorin]

No, I use some old underwear

 

[Digby]

Have you made a purchase yet? because of the weak yen (weakest in a decade) you can buy the Nagaoka dirt cheap direct from Japan. Audio-Technica prices seem to be relatively similar, I'm presuming because of better distribution in the West.

 

[Digby]

1) Enzymatic Wash / Treatment (finish with clean vac on the vac machine)
2) Ultrasonic Wash
3) Treatment with ArmorAll
(this step is contentious, but a very very light armorall treatment provides several things, it includes re-plasticisers, as old vinyl often loses some of its plasticity, it actus as a lubricant, reducing friction, and it tends to, over a period of time, creep between embeded grit/dust and the vinyl surface within which it is embedded, causing it to release! The creep release process takes at least a few days... a week is good)
4) Final Ultrasonic Wash
5) Last Preservative Treatment

Goodness, it might be easier to care for a babe in arms.

 

[dlaloum]

Goodness, it might be easier to care for a babe in arms.

The records don't rain torrents of muck from both ends....

and you only do the full treatment once - once the record is truly clean, standard dusting/cleaning is more than ample - it's getting the stuff that's deep in the track that is hard to do... and mostly for old, used records.

 

[Eric Natural]

You cats sold me on the vm95 & found the v.SHI at almost the same price as the ML. Thx for that. Replacing the Grado 8Ref that the granddaughter killed. Protracted it me-self and it mates marvelous thru the uTurn Pluto2. I'm fortunate to have a fair amount of vinyl from the 70s & 80s, just a couple of more recent disks ie. Pearl Jam Dark Matter sounds phenom.
Cheers

 

[JP]

SH is inferior to the ML.

 

[Platypus20]

SH is inferior to the ML.

How??

According to AT, its a step up

 

[dlaloum]

How??

According to AT, its a step up

Shibata, typically has a shorter vertical patch and wider horizontal patch...

But it is definitely a line contact profile - although theoretically a marginal step down from ML in practice there's not much in it.

Note also that there was at one point Shibata Small and Shibata large... I am assuming we are talking about Shibata large (which became the defacto standard) - the Shibata Small would be a step down... you would need more detailed specs on the needle profile to be able to tell

 

[Platypus20]

Shibata, typically has a shorter vertical patch and wider horizontal patch...

But it is definitely a line contact profile - although theoretically a marginal step down from ML in practice there's not much in it.

Note also that there was at one point Shibata Small and Shibata large... I am assuming we are talking about Shibata large (which became the defacto standard) - the Shibata Small would be a step down... you would need more detailed specs on the needle profile to be able to tell

Interesting, thanks for the response

 

[JP]

Contact area on a Shibata increases as it wears. MicroRidge (MicroLine for AT) is a laser-cut “fin“ that maintains a maximum contact area until it’s completely worn out. ML will last a lot longer than a Shibata and have consistent performance for its useable life.

AT always considered ML the top of the line until the VM series were released when they priced SH above it and then their SLC. The only thing that changed was their marketing and price structure.

 

[JP]

And I disagree that it’s a theoretical marginal step down. Take each with several hundred hours on them and it’s rather significant.

 

[Eric Natural]

Contact area on a Shibata increases as it wears. MicroRidge (MicroLine for AT) is a laser-cut “fin“ that maintains a maximum contact area until it’s completely worn out . . .

Regardless - this deck sounds schweet atm. Could not be happier with it's performance.
Revolver Super/PlatterMatter w/AQ2 arm, platinum litz wires

I play maybe 2 hrs per month on the vinyl - primarily using Applemusic streaming into the Wiim Mini in the stereo room.
Cheers