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Upgrade phono from Nad pp2?

spiritcrusher88

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First post here so hopefully it's OK!
I've been getting back into vinyl in a big way over the past two years and currently running a rega P3 with exact cartridge into an old nad pp2 phono stage, into nad c355bee to wharfedale lintons heritage.
I've a decent cd player (also a NAD) and streaming setup also (streaming raspberry pi into schitt modi multibit).

What I'm finding though is compared to the digital media setups the vinyl versions of the same albums can just sound a little less lively and dynamic. I guess it could just be the limitation of the format, or could it be the phono stage I bought close to 20 years ago showing its limitations?

More than willing to splash out on an upgrade as I really love the format and would love to get it close in excitement and punchlines l as the CD. Chances of getting to audition equipment are sadly limited in my rural irish location

Opinions/help/advice much appreciated! Thanks all.
 
The measurements that I have seen of your Exact cartridge corroborate what you are hearing.


aushifii-reviews-rega6-g1.jpg


Here are other measurements: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rega-aya-your-thoughts.55882/post-2037930

That sloping frequency response should sound dull compared to your digital set-up. I would expect that a cartridge upgrade to something more neutral (at least up until 10kHz) will get you something much more comparable to your reference. If this is in fact the response you are getting (I don't know how you are loading it) then DSP or a phono stage with DSP such as the aforementioned Waxwing can correct it and not a traditional phono stage. If you consider a replacement cartridge you don't need anything that is anywhere near the price of the Exact. Price does not correlate with performance when it comes to cartridges.

Note that we have a measurement of the Exact 2 in our library thread and it does not show the response above. It does look like it prefers minimal capacitance (total, including the capacitance of the tone arm), so it may sound bright if your phono stage doesn't have robust loading settings that includes option under 100pF.


There are many threads with cartridge recommendations on this site so you should find something in your budget. If you go in that direction do look up the cartridge in our measurement library so that you can see the response and the best loading settings.
 
Hi, and welcome :)

Firstly, don't be surprised at all if digital sounds better than vinyl - that's just because it does. Vinyl is an inherently flawed medium.
Having said that, I still like to play the odd record and sometimes you get a better master on vinyl.
It's a hobby - enjoy it the way you like.

Back to your question: I'd agree that your cartridge is probably the problem.
Don't spend a lot - Audio Technica AT-VM95ML is a favourite recommendation and I'd use that as the maximum you should spend.
The cartridge measurement thread here is fantastic, although tricky to understand sometimes. Persevere.

After that, look at adjustments you can make to your room / speaker positioning.
If you want to get serious then consider measuring your system in your room, that's where the benefits come from.

Good luck
 
There is nothing wrong with your phono pre amp. The NAD PP2 is a good performing device, I used to own one myself and it has been measured here on ASR. I have no experience with your cartridge, but what others have posted suggests that is the source of your problem.

Keep in mind that no matter what romantic words are generally spoken about vinyl, it is a flawed format. However a good vinyl playback system should be subjectively pretty close to digital if comparing the same master with nice condition records. Digital will generally always be louder if doing a direct A - B comparison which will automatically make it be perceived as better - so keep that in mind. Try to make your comparisons with a matched volume level if possible.
 
Maybe is only a matter of gain difference ... even I don't like Rega cartridges at all.
Ortofon have the higher output values, but AT have the best price / performance ratio today (by far).

The vm95en is very, very good and the vm95ml is fantastic, all under 200 USD. Not a bargain ... a steal.

I have digital and analog sources, and (with good records) I don't find any superiority in digital. My experience with my room / speakers / ears. Maybe my ears and acoustic problems are worst than the real but theoretical flawless of the format (I mean, in MY reality I don't find it)
 
The measurements that I have seen of your Exact cartridge corroborate what you are hearing.


View attachment 401699

Here are other measurements: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rega-aya-your-thoughts.55882/post-2037930

That sloping frequency response should sound dull compared to your digital set-up. I would expect that a cartridge upgrade to something more neutral (at least up until 10kHz) will get you something much more comparable to your reference. If this is in fact the response you are getting (I don't know how you are loading it) then DSP or a phono stage with DSP such as the aforementioned Waxwing can correct it and not a traditional phono stage. If you consider a replacement cartridge you don't need anything that is anywhere near the price of the Exact. Price does not correlate with performance when it comes to cartridges.

Note that we have a measurement of the Exact 2 in our library thread and it does not show the response above. It does look like it prefers minimal capacitance (total, including the capacitance of the tone arm), so it may sound bright if your phono stage doesn't have robust loading settings that includes option under 100pF.


There are many threads with cartridge recommendations on this site so you should find something in your budget. If you go in that direction do look up the cartridge in our measurement library so that you can see the response and the best loading settings.
Thank the lord that the post above has another proper measurements of this dire pickup cartridge, totally opposite of the original Apheta MC for example, which had originally a 5dB hf RISE!!! The Bias, Elys and Exact ALL had the infamous mid kHz suckout of older designs which AT, Shure and Ortofon especially worked so hard to remove (the ATs instead often tend to a response rise at 10 - 15kHz though, which is easily lived with I discovered)

Until the OP has replaced this awful and old fashioned pickup* (unreliable and squidgy sounding with it, to hell with the Vital diamond it's fitted with!) with something more modern (it was out of date in the mid 80s when it was introduced), I'd seriously leave the PP2 alone (the PP2 I remember, also has a 'gentler' tone to it, but this is as nothing compared to the cartridge).

*Easy sale for Rega dealers today as the bloody thing was factory fitted, saving dealers time to set up and check every deck they sell. Back in my day, I opened up, set up with chosen pickup (later times often an Ortofon 500 or Goldring 10** model) and checked and listened to every one, often in front of the customer, chatting about what I was doing as I went along!

The AT VM540 is for me a wonderful place to start. Posher internals than the much loved VM95ML and just a little over two hundred quid here. The output isn't too strong either, so it won't risk overloading the PP2 input (the Exact would have a higher output, due I gather, to the relative lack of shielding this generation of home-made cartridges has). I'd also look at the metal mount derivative, the VM740, which is slightly more restrained (the German Lowbeats site has proper measurements of both, done in a Rega 9 deck and soundbites too I think).

In a Rega tonearm, I'm a huge fan of the Ortofon 2M Bronze, now available in a slimmer profile to help VTA in these arms. It has a crisp lively nature which I love with vinyl sources and the PP2 should be able to take advantage of this.


Disgusted that I sold my mint original vinyl copy of this album twenty years back, I bought a brand new Abbey Road pressing (all analogue) of 'The Colour Of Spring' by Talk Talk (1986 recording). The original pressing was DMM cut, but the sub 60Hz filtering actually works in its favour, favouring the top over the leanly recorded bass. The current one lovingly recut on a properly restored tape machine and lathe, sounds just a touch 'sweeter' to me (Shure V15 III [which has amazed me how 'accurate' it actually was] and Ortofon Super OM30 pickups, both pretty damned 'flat' in overall balance), but that may interest 'analogue' people more. Whatever, it's a great recording to compare with the CD (my CD is original from the time of release).


P.S. Rega have finally launched a new and claimed much improved range of MM cartridges, but they seem very expensive, the £200 ND3 only has a bonded elliptical when a naked line stylus or even a Shibata can be got for similar money, the ND5 has a naked elliptical tip but it's three hundred quid here and more than the VM740 I mention above. I know it's something for a company outside of Japan to make these things (cantilever/diamond assemblies used to be imported though from Europe we were told), but their total dismissal of measurements in terms of frequency response and potential hum pickup, really annoyed me. No measurements yet on the ND models, so I reserve judgements which I won't base on 'sound quality' alone - EVER!!!

P.S.S. and with apologies for the rant above, I set up a new Exact 2 in a new Planar 8 a few months back on the instructions of the dealer I did it for. Very 'nice' tone, but no sparkle, just a nice smoooooth sound which may well be fine with spitty speakers and no digital as we had in the early 1980s, but hopelessly out of its time today... P
 
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I have the vm540ml and I change the original body for a metal one (like the 740), and I agree with you, it rivals my at33ptg MC.

Also, I have the vm95 ... and for a beginner I don't find a better price / performance ratio than the 95 line. Fantastic.

I had the blue and bronze, very good ones, but not better than AT with (very) higher prices.
 
Appreciate all the replies. General sense seems to be to leave the PP2 in place and replace the cartridge. Had previously seen those measurements here alright which seemed decent, but I'm wondering if capacitance could be an issue?
Had been leaning towards the vm540ML but the recommended loading seems to be 100-200pF and the PP2 alone is 200pF. Would this present a significant enough issue? Never had a preamp with adjustable loadings so haven't really heard myself what difference it makes to the sound. Thanks again all!
 
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