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Neumann MA1 vs. Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) - Dual KH750 subs

dziemian

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You are avoiding my question.
I asked those question to creator of Audiolense, Acourate and Deqx. I dont own Neumann Systems but I am Pręty confidential it is no diffrent to mentioned above. You may prove me wrong.
 
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DJBonoBobo

DJBonoBobo

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I asked those question to creator of Audiolense, Acourate and Deqx. I dont own Neumann Systems but I am Pręty confidential it is no diffrent to mentioned above. You may prove me wrong.
No. You have to prove what you say. I provided measurements that show interactions between subs, as far as i understand them. I am no expert.
If you claim you know better you have to provide solid arguments, or it is just lazy shit talk.
 

dziemian

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No. You have to prove what you say. I provided measurements that show interactions between subs, as far as i understand them. I am no expert.
If you claim you know better you have to provide solid arguments, or it is just lazy shit talk.
Yes. You are right. Enjoy your system
 

192kbps

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The new multichannel extension for MA1 supports up to 4 subs, but with additional cost. I wonder how this and the whole multichannel thing compares to DLBC.
Hopefully someone will try it.
4 subs? I also heard that we are preparing to update the surround sound calibration.
 
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DJBonoBobo

DJBonoBobo

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4 subs? I also heard that we are preparing to update the surround sound calibration.

Available for around 300 EUR (additionally to normal MA1).
 

palm

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Dirac and multi sub takes into account all the subs available and how they interact with each other. Acourate, audiolense,deqx,neumann measure aech sub channel individually.

Not sure if this is an accurate or useful categorization but here is how I see the different flavors of subwoofer integrations:
  1. no filtering of the speakers, adjust low pass and volume of the sub to blend
  2. high pass filtering of speakers, sub is like an extra way with proper crossover, and EQ is stereo full range, not 3 channels
  3. more than one sub, but each receive the same signal and EQ, just with different delays
  4. each sub is EQ’d to flat separately
  5. each sub has separate EQ but the target isn’t to be individually flat but for the sum to be flat.
For 5. I guess this is because of an asymmetry in how peaks and nulls are considered when creating a filter, so 4 could be suboptimal.
 

shxxc

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Excuse me for my silly question. After calibrating with MA-1, is the sound of the two 750 subs separated into left and right channels ? I am planning to purchase a pair of KH 120 II monitors and connect them with two KH 750 subs using coaxial cables.
 

Hexspa

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Not sure if this is an accurate or useful categorization but here is how I see the different flavors of subwoofer integrations:
  1. no filtering of the speakers, adjust low pass and volume of the sub to blend
  2. high pass filtering of speakers, sub is like an extra way with proper crossover, and EQ is stereo full range, not 3 channels
  3. more than one sub, but each receive the same signal and EQ, just with different delays
  4. each sub is EQ’d to flat separately
  5. each sub has separate EQ but the target isn’t to be individually flat but for the sum to be flat.
For 5. I guess this is because of an asymmetry in how peaks and nulls are considered when creating a filter, so 4 could be suboptimal.
I only have one sub and I get the best response with (1.). But, having looked into the matter, any of these options might be best. (4.) is not necessarily suboptimal because if each sub is flat at a given point, the only thing that would cause non-flatness is a timing issue.
 

Hexspa

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What’s the consensus here with MA-1? Do you all trust Neumann, this product and their level of service? Watching from the sidelines, it seems less reliable and recommended than GLM with the caveat that it’s a newer system.

While heartening to see an update, I can’t help but feel dismayed this is an additional charge where GLM has the functions included for the roughly equivalent base price.
 
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DJBonoBobo

DJBonoBobo

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What’s the consensus here with MA-1? Do you all trust Neumann, this product and their level of service? Watching from the sidelines, it seems less reliable and recommended than GLM with the caveat that it’s a newer system.

While heartening to see an update, I can’t help but feel dismayed this is an additional charge where GLM has the functions included for the roughly equivalent base price.
Difficult to answer. I trust Neumann to be an excellent hardware manufacturer with good people. But it seems they have underestimated the software side. So, on the one hand it is a good sign they made new software versions just because i told them about bugs - this happened a few times already. On the other hand i think, why do i have to be the one who sees the bugs and why aren't they able to test everything thoroughly themselves?
Also, they tried building a support team (external, guess), but they don't have the same level of expertise as the core guys.
All in all, afaik it is still a small team with limited ressources.
I have always found a solution to work around the quirks, or they fixed it. So while sometimes frustrating, it has been ok for me, because - last point - i trust the end results to be as good as it gets.
I never tried Genelec/GLM.
 
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DJBonoBobo

DJBonoBobo

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Excuse me for my silly question. After calibrating with MA-1, is the sound of the two 750 subs separated into left and right channels ? I am planning to purchase a pair of KH 120 II monitors and connect them with two KH 750 subs using coaxial cables.
I think you want to know how to connect everything? I saw a diagram somewhere, it is probably in the manual. There are different ways, but i think most common is a daisy chain digital out -> sub1 -> kh120ii 1 -> kh120ii 2 -> sub2. Not sure though, i don't have digital speakers.
 

palm

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I only have one sub and I get the best response with (1.). But, having looked into the matter, any of these options might be best. (4.) is not necessarily suboptimal because if each sub is flat at a given point, the only thing that would cause non-flatness is a timing issue.
If we consider a theoretical system with 2 subs, each one being flat at listening position beside a severe drop around 2 different frequencies each f1 and f2.
Equalization of both subs separately (4.) doesn't help, the EQ system correctly avoiding to fill those nulls. The sum of responses shows two drops.
On the other hand, if the EQ software is also considering the complex sum to calculate correction filters (5.), it might be possible for sub1 to moderately compensate for f2, and sub2 for f1?
 

Hexspa

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If we consider a theoretical system with 2 subs, each one being flat at listening position beside a severe drop around 2 different frequencies each f1 and f2.
Equalization of both subs separately (4.) doesn't help, the EQ system correctly avoiding to fill those nulls. The sum of responses shows two drops.
On the other hand, if the EQ software is also considering the complex sum to calculate correction filters (5.), it might be possible for sub1 to moderately compensate for f2, and sub2 for f1?
I do not know. If I had two different subs and was getting some kind of phasing issue due to different extensions I might just high pass the more performant sub to match. Given an equal slope, this should fix the problem but at the expense of less bass. An all pass filter might also work. These are just guesses.
 

McGlear

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(4.) is not necessarily suboptimal because if each sub is flat at a given point, the only thing that would cause non-flatness is a timing issue.
This assumes you can get individual sub curves flat within a non-optimal room, right? Seems quite unlikely even for a single listening position.
The beauty of (5.) - see dlbc, mso, geddes etc. - is that you can fill in one sub's null with another sub at another position in the room, then correct the sum (which unlike the individual sub's response can be flattened, because ideally it does not have any nulls caused by room modes anymore).
 

Hexspa

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This assumes you can get individual sub curves flat within a non-optimal room, right? Seems quite unlikely even for a single listening position.
The beauty of (5.) - see dlbc, mso, geddes etc. - is that you can fill in one sub's null with another sub at another position in the room, then correct the sum (which unlike the individual sub's response can be flattened, because ideally it does not have any nulls caused by room modes anymore).
It would have been better if I said “flat at a given frequency range at a given point”. Any given frequency may have a null but it may be shallower or further outside your target band than others. For me, a hypothetical narrow 6dB null at 40Hz is less important than a wider 15dB null at 100Hz.

Other than that, this is abstract to me since I’ve only ever used one sub and non-high passed Yamaha HS50s.
 
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