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Neumann KH310+KH750 2.2 vs Genelec 8331a+7350a 2.2 vs ???

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Hi All,

I've been lurking for a while, but this is my first post. Thanks for all that you've taught me along the way.

I've always wanted to record and mix my own music, but I'm finally in a position to do so. Like many home studios, I have to work with the space I have. It's a 12 ft x 12 ft (3.66 m x 3.66 m) room with a small hallway/doorway leading into it (so kind of L-shaped, or a square with a much smaller square attached to one corner, if that makes sense).

I plan on doing some thorough acoustic treatment, but from the research I've done, it is apparently a good idea to get speakers before beginning treatment (to help identify the best listening position, etc. before installing treatment).

I'm currently leaning towards either the Neumann KH310 + two KH750 subs or the Genelec 8331a + two 7350a subs.

Given the small size of the room and the fact that I want the most accurate system I can afford (because I'll be using this to mix), I'm thinking I'll probably end up with a very small equilateral triangle for my speaker placement (just guessing here, but let's say something around 3 ft or 1 m).

I love all types of music, but primarily plan on recording/mixing rock. The caveat is that I'm tuned down to B0, so the low string on my bass goes down to about 30 or 31 Hz. I know that low end in small rooms can be challenging. I don't actually expect this music to be particularly bass heavy (so not like EDM or hip hop, for instance). But, I do want a system that's capable of recreating those low frequencies and accurately informing my mix decisions.

It seems like this forum has a lot of love for the KH310 (I've read all 60+ pages of the review for these). In general, you folks also seem to like Genelecs, and although not done by Amir, I've seen some favorable reviews of the 8331a, in particular.

Given the space I have to work with, and my goal of using these to mix, are there any major pros or cons to either of these choices?

Some general questions/observations I have between these two options:
  1. I'm drawn to the sealed design of the Neumanns, whereas the rear porting on the Genelecs makes me a tad nervous because my hunch is that the room's sweet spot might lead me to put the speakers pretty darn close to the front wall. Am I right to think that putting a rear ported speaker very close to a wall is foolish, and thus, the Genelecs might not be the best choice for me?
  2. I've read that the Neumanns tend to have some strange bass response in cold rooms (I believe this was noted in a 58 degree F / 14.44 degree C room). The room that I'm planning to use doesn't have climate control, and in winter, it could be close to that temperature or only a few degrees warmer than that. Should I be concerned?
  3. I've read some folks say that coaxial designs are great for small rooms. Would that be a strong argument in favor of the Genelecs?
  4. Apparently a new version of the KH310 is in the works, but I'm not sure when they will actually come out and I'm not sure I want to buy a new (less tested) model. Would it make sense to you to buy a set of KH310s now, knowing that an update is around the corner?
  5. Does Neumann's MA1 system offer any advantages over what can be achieved with Genelec's approach to room correction and/or aligning the subs with the monitors?

And are there any other systems in this general price range (say around $10,000) that can produce equivalent low frequency content but have some other advantage over the Neumanns or Genelecs? At the risk of redundancy, I'm wanting to mix in a small room, so extreme near field accuracy is more important to me than getting particularly loud or being an "exciting" system to listen to.

As I mentioned, I've always had an interest in mixing my own music, but I'm just now in a position to do it, so I have a lot to learn. My apologies if these are overly newbie questions, or if I should have posted this in a different part of the forum. Thanks in advance for any knowledge or opinions that you can share.
 
I recently switched from 2x KH310 + 2x KH750 to just 2x KH120II in a small room (3x5m). In the Neumann system my recommendation is, try 2x KH150 and MA1 without subs first. Then add the 750s if you see you really need them. Reasons:
- The KH310 are good, but in small rooms the KH150 (and 120II) have an advantage because of the better directivity. The 150/120II also have a much more narrow beam width. IMHO, this is an advantage, because it is easier to get them to sound correct. Some enjoy having a speaker with a wider beam, but i am not one of them and prefer it to be more precise.
- The 310 is unpractical for just 1m distance because of their physical size. You probably want to have a display/screen between the speakers. The 150/120II are easier to set up.
- The 150/120II are the most modern and support MA1 directly.
- If you and the speakers are both close to the wall, there is a good chance you can have deep bass even without subs. In my room even my 120II can reproduce 30Hz:

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- So i think the KH150 could be worth a try.

Bass is very much influenced by you room though and it might be that you really need those subs. But you could just add them, the MA1 will integrate them automatically.

The only small problem is, if you really need subs, the 120II are probably sufficient and you probably don´t even need the KH150.

I can´t comment on Genelec, but they have an excellent reputation.
 
Thanks so much for the detailed response! I saw you post quite a bit on that long KH310 thread so it’s awesome to get input from someone who not only knows more about speakers in general than I do, but even better, has direct experience with some of the models I’m interested in.

Okay, I will definitely look into the 150 and 120II. I have to admit, I ruled those out because I’ve read a lot of good things about 3-way designs over 2-ways. Of course, if I end up getting subs, I guess those 2-ways sort of become 3-ways.

On a related note, you make a very interesting point about possibly not even needing subs if I’m right against the wall. That sure would free up some money to get started on room treatment right away. That graph you shared has far better low end than I would’ve expected from those speakers without a sub.
 
You need subs and subs can go and with two ways with 6.5" woofer or larger. As they won't do under mid lows anyway. KH750 are pretty good. Certainly enough for mid to close setup. If it's small room definitely it's better that they go close to wall behind as you can't get good back to front lv of refractions anyway. Do the light accustic treatment that will resolve focus and level for upper high mids and upwards and do the room and EQ-ing on DSP along with ISO 226 (automatically or manually).
You could start with (much) cheaper equipment and learn to do it properly with almost the same final results.
Welcome to ASR and continue to read and learn.
 
You are welcome. On paper, or under optimal circumstances, the KH310 may be a little better (a bit less distortion in the midrange due to the dome driver). But at least in my small room the side reflections always induced problems. I tried fixing this with a lot of treatment, but i never was completely satisfied. Treatment of the side walls is a difficult and very controversial topic. Now, with the narrower directivity of the KH120II (same with KH150), the side walls are no longer a problem, and i could remove the absorbers there. I still have absorbers on the front and back wall and the ceiling.
So for me, the difference in directivity was much more important than the subtle difference in the midrange.
But i have to say, i kind of gave up on the fantasy of getting perfect sound in my small room. After trying for years pushing the results from 95% to maybe 97% with a lot of money and effort, i have now settled with 95%, and that is ok for me.
 
@DJBonoBobo if the room fundamental is so high 63 Hz then it's a very small room, or better say short. It's problem even with average larger room but it helps if length is 5 m or more. Three way properly crossed help (that mid bass woofer doesn't do mid's) and with some of those midrange driver's you can get cardioid response above it.
 
@DJBonoBobo if the room fundamental is so high 63 Hz then it's a very small room, or better say short. It's problem even with average larger room but it helps if length is 5 m or more. Three way properly crossed help (that mid bass woofer doesn't do mid's) and with some of those midrange driver's you can get cardioid response above it.
Hi @ZolaIII. Thanks for your input, as well. I’m definitely planning on pretty extensive treatment with EQ to supplement, but I’m not familiar with ISO226, so I’ll have to read up on that.

You also make an interesting point about starting with “(much) cheaper equipment”. I feel like a bit of an impostor jumping to something like a 2.2 system with KH310s or 8331as. That being said, I keep hearing folks say that your monitors should be one of, if not the, top priority when building a project studio. I’ve basically wanted to do this all my life and I’m finally in a position to do it in earnest, so I’m tempted to skip a step or two and go right to speakers of that caliber. But, being a newbie, I also recognize that paying 4x as much might only produce marginally better results that will largely be lost on my untrained ears in a less than ideal room. Hmmm… my bank account does like the idea of saving several thousand dollars haha.
 
@DJBonoBobo That’s super helpful. Seems like stepping down to the 150 or 120II might actually get better results in my small room.

Great point about chasing perfection. In any field, diminishing returns set in. I think I could be more than happy with the 95% you mention (if not less, haha). My understanding of the project studio world is that we’ll never have perfect spaces to work in or unlimited budgets, so we’ll never get to 100%. Instead, it’s about learning how to work in your specific room. Now that being said, if judiciously picking the right speakers for my application helps me get to trusting what I hear a little bit quicker, well I might be willing to pay a bit of a premium for that.
 
You don't have to go with top of the pops equipment there are and nice solid budget offerings as well. Buying the best possible speaker's won't solve all the problems. You need to learn to deal with problems! Room elephant to start with and as usual there is no really compensation for size or better say length. ISO 226 to revision year is updated equal loudness compensation standard. It has the catch with crossover where bass boost self low filler is (105 Hz Q 0.71) so crossover needs to be above and not far off so that it stays on sub's when you add a lot and also that's why 2.2. More narrow or as predictable cardioid for close to mid range I tried to show with that Mešanović one and only regarding used mid range driver, appreciate the attempt (of doing more out of the less) but would like to see bottom crossover higher at 200~250 Hz for the use with proper sub's. Hope you at least have some experience regarding DAW's as I am totally out and old school.
You can play very successfully paying an order of magnitude less and well work on improving your skills and see how that works out.
 
3.66m square. Mixing. My opinion is that the KH150 probably fits better your use-case.

I have heard the KH150 … it images really well. Tonally similar to the other speaker family members.

I own the KH310, installed in 4m square room, for HiFi listening. Integrated with 3rd party sub. Works pretty good for me.
 
You don't have to go with top of the pops equipment there are and nice solid budget offerings as well. Buying the best possible speaker's won't solve all the problems. You need to learn to deal with problems! Room elephant to start with and as usual there is no really compensation for size or better say length. ISO 226 to revision year is updated equal loudness compensation standard. It has the catch with crossover where bass boost self low filler is (105 Hz Q 0.71) so crossover needs to be above and not far off so that it stays on sub's when you add a lot and also that's why 2.2. More narrow or as predictable cardioid for close to mid range I tried to show with that Mešanović one and only regarding used mid range driver, appreciate the attempt (of doing more out of the less) but would like to see bottom crossover higher at 200~250 Hz for the use with proper sub's. Hope you at least have some experience regarding DAW's as I am totally out and old school.
You can play very successfully paying an order of magnitude less and well work on improving your skills and see how that works out.
Yeah, I totally get that having the best equipment doesn’t automatically make a person good at mixing. As you say, building skills is huge, the room itself matters, etc. I have a ton to learn about all this, but you asked about DAWs, and I do at least have a decent amount of experience with that aspect of this whole process. Thanks again for your insights!
 
@boxerfan88 Thanks! That sounds like another vote for stepping away from the KH310 and to something like the KH150 or possibly KH120II. Although I have to ask - you say your room is 4m x 4m and you use the KH310. My room is 3.66m x 3.66m. That’s only 0.34 m x 0.34 m difference between our rooms. Does such a small amount really make a critical difference between being able to use the KH310 successfully and not being able to do so?
 
Well several folks have suggested that I avoid the KH310 and look at something like the KH150 or KH120II given the small size of my room and those speakers’ tighter directivity. In that case, are there any other 2-way speakers I should consider? I was looking at the Adam S2V. I haven’t looked up its directivity yet, but I thought I’d throw this question out to anyone who might be kind enough to share their thoughts. I’m still very interested in some Genelec models too.
 
Well several folks have suggested that I avoid the KH310 and look at something like the KH150 or KH120II given the small size of my room and those speakers’ tighter directivity. In that case, are there any other 2-way speakers I should consider? I was looking at the Adam S2V. I haven’t looked up its directivity yet, but I thought I’d throw this question out to anyone who might be kind enough to share their thoughts. I’m still very interested in some Genelec models too.
There are some other manufacturers making good speakers, but you will need another solution for room EQ and maybe sub integration. It is possible to achieve good results, of course, but you´ll have to invest a lot of time. I tried different options for years (like Dirac Live or doing it by hand via REW and Equalizer APO), but when MA1 came out, the result was better out of the box than all of my experiments that cost me a lot of weekends. YMMV of course, but i suggest sticking with Neumann or Genelec - they have both good packages including a DSP/room EQ solution. Sadly, no one ever made a proper comparison of Neumann MA1 vs. Genelec GLM with comparable speakers, so seemingly nobody knows which package gives better results in the end. Both should be good enough, though.
 
@DJBonoBobo Great point. As a rookie, ease of use scores a lot of points for me. I’d rather spend my time recording and mixing than endlessly tweaking the monitors to get them right. I was aware of options like Dirac, and I’d read a few comments about how comparatively easy MA1 and GLM are, but it’s super helpful to hear from someone who’s dealt with some of these firsthand. +1 for sticking with Neumann or Genelec.

And yes, a direct comparison between MA1 and GLM would be super interesting.
 
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