Neumann KH120 II

[Spocko]

The Kh120 II is getting more buzz than KH150 lately

Must be because they replaced aluminum with MDF

 

[Spocko]

Hi,
I just saw this thread about a derivative of KH150 => I went thru the pics of the 1st post => I saw : spdif coax digital in/out plugs.

Is it the final version of this speaker to be released on the market ?
if so, I've got the same question I posted on the KH150 thread => why Neumann guys keep on putting basic spdif coax connections on their speakers ?
behind this type of connection, you've got a poor clock recovery, thus, poor SQ !
Poor vs you'd get just using AES3 plugs (and all the IC dedicated stuff behind) !

This plugs (digital coax), shows that Neumann guys are jerks about digital audio.
Just an advice to them => do tests/trial etc on digital audio (aes vs coax ; the effect on SQ from the device upstr, and so on...)

very weird that "new" product.. boo !

Actually, there are two distinct KH120ii models, and you missed the model that also has the AES67 digital input (which is the one I ordered) - see below. But since not everyone needs AES67, you can save $250 per speaker with just SPDIF coax (which is literally indistinguishable in terms of audible SQ while allowing you keep $500 for a pair of speakers). Nice option - still think they're jerks?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Must be because they replaced aluminum with MDF

That's a downgrade any way you look at it
They should have decreased the price just Becaue of that

 

[Spocko]

That's a downgrade any way you look at it
They should have decreased the price just Becaue of that

Great point, let's walk through the possibilities! They launched the original back in 2012 for $750 each, if you take into account inflation, that would be $956 today. Also, today's model has DSP and MA1 capability, not to mention improved SPL and better performing drivers/amplifier. Ultimately, at worst you can say price has not changed and at best, the price is less than what it would've been if you took this same speaker back to 2012: how much would something like this cost back then even with MDF?

Yes, MDF is arguably a downgrade from aluminum, but you're getting more where it counts (DSP, better drivers, better cross-over for improved dispersion pattern, better amp, better DAC, etc.) all of which is also worth money.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Great point, let's walk through the possibilities! They launched the original back in 2012 for $750 each, if you take into account inflation, that would be $956 today. Also, today's model has DSP and MA1 capability, not to mention improved SPL and better performing drivers/amplifier. Ultimately, at worst you can say price has not changed and at best, the price is less than what it would've been if you took this same speaker back to 2012: how much would something like this cost back then even with MDF?

Yes, MDF is arguably a downgrade from aluminum, but you're getting more where it counts (DSP, better drivers, better cross-over for improved dispersion pattern, better amp, better DAC, etc.) all of which is also worth money.

valid points
but I don't like the fact that people (not you) automatically defend a manufacturer when he uses cheaper materials
If Toyota will start selling MDF Corollas then yes I'd expect a price decrease Becaue of it

 

[Spocko]

valid points
but I don't like the fact that people (not you) automatically defend a manufacturer when he uses cheaper materials
If Toyota will start selling MDF Corollas then yes I'd expect a price decrease Becaue of it

I completely agree with you, but I also empathize that a maker wants to build to a "budget" in order to make the product more accessible. Genelec is very expensive and sadly not accessible to many because they do not have a cheaper MDF version, and they're made in Finland. What if they made the 8350 with MDF in China and charged $999 for SQ that is 99% of the aluminum because GLM did its job regardless of the materials used? I think Genelec volume sales would likely explode but they choose not to do this.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I completely agree with you, but I also empathize that a maker wants to build to a "budget" in order to make the product more accessible. Genelec is very expensive and sadly not accessible to many because they do not have a cheaper MDF version, and they're made in Finland. What if they made the 8350 with MDF in China and charged $999 for SQ that is 99% of the aluminum because GLM did its job regardless of the materials used? I think Genelec volume sales would likely explode but they choose not to do this.

What's surprising is that their most expensive model
The $63K 8381 is mostly MDF lol

 

[Spocko]

What's surprising is that their most expensive model
The $63K 8381 is mostly MDF lol

Maybe we should be cheering that it's not $70K!

 

[teashea]

The Kh120 II is getting more buzz than KH150 lately

Humans have limited attention spans.

 

[teashea]

Great point, let's walk through the possibilities! They launched the original back in 2012 for $750 each, if you take into account inflation, that would be $956 today. Also, today's model has DSP and MA1 capability, not to mention improved SPL and better performing drivers/amplifier. Ultimately, at worst you can say price has not changed and at best, the price is less than what it would've been if you took this same speaker back to 2012: how much would something like this cost back then even with MDF?

Yes, MDF is arguably a downgrade from aluminum, but you're getting more where it counts (DSP, better drivers, better cross-over for improved dispersion pattern, better amp, better DAC, etc.) all of which is also worth money.

I have KH 120's and KH 120 II's. I suspect that the II's have less cabinet resonance.

 

[IamJF]

To make that silly discussion an end ... aluminium needs a lot of attention to make it a good cabinet material. It rings cause it's very stiff.

Here a quick and totally unscientific "knocking test", recorded with my phone. KH120 vs KH120ii.
One of my KH120 has a strong ringing, the other only a little. It also depends on setup - with some dampening sylomer it reduces. As I always tell - aluminium is not a good material per se. It's work to make it good (but it is possible).

The KH120ii has no ringing at all. Feels very dead.
MDF is not a bad material for ACOUSTICS. Esp when you get thick (with 40mm you don't need aditional dampening to get a pretty dead wall. Not perfect yet but very easy to build)
Just don't let water to it ...

 

[Dharmaone]

got the KH-120 IIs and plugged them into the KH-750 - wow!! The Kali IN-5s were good but these are next level. Can't wait to do MA-1 room correction and see if that takes them up another notch still. Thanks for the advice and recommendations - v happy!

 

[teashea]

got the KH-120 IIs and plugged them into the KH-750 - wow!! The Kali IN-5s were good but these are next level. Can't wait to do MA-1 room correction and see if that takes them up another notch still. Thanks for the advice and recommendations - v happy!

very cool. Let us know how it goes

 

[Spocko]

got the KH-120 IIs and plugged them into the KH-750 - wow!! The Kali IN-5s were good but these are next level. Can't wait to do MA-1 room correction and see if that takes them up another notch still. Thanks for the advice and recommendations - v happy!

YES, please confirm that the MA1 works with the KH-120 II!

 

[HQY]

YES, please confirm that the MA1 works with the KH-120 II!

I can confirm. But I did get some issue till I upgraded the software from I.6.3 to 1.6.4.

 

[HQY]

i received my 2nd 750 but got problem with ma1 when use below connection:
* analogue preamp, left output to left 750, right output to right 750;
* left 750 spdif to left 120ii & right 750 spdif to right 120ii; also tried
* left 750 xlr to left 120ii & right 750 xlr to right 120ii.
i got error message that "the subwoofers got different level signals". if i just connect one 750, i don't have the problem.
according to the on-screen instruction of ma1, i have to use a pair of y split cables to connect both 750s at same time to their L/R chennels to make sure both 750s receive same signals in the both channels. this is unexpected.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

i received my 2nd 750 but got problem with ma1 when use below connection:
* analogue preamp, left output to left 750, right output to right 750;
* left 750 spdif to left 120ii & right 750 spdif to right 120ii; also tried
* left 750 xlr to left 120ii & right 750 xlr to right 120ii.
i got error message that "the subwoofers got different level signals". if i just connect one 750, i don't have the problem.
according to the on-screen instruction of ma1, i have to use a pair of y split cables to connect both 750s at same time to their L/R chennels to make sure both 750s receive same signals in the both channels. this is unexpected.

This is the way. Dual subs still produce a summed bass signal from both channels ("mono" bass - like 1 sub in two cabinets) so both of them need the stereo signal.

 

[HQY]

This is the way. Dual subs still produce a summed bass signal from both channels ("mono" bass - like 1 sub in two cabinets) so both of them need the stereo signal.

i noticed that neumann revised the manual of 750. in the attached file, 1st connection was quoted from prior version and the next two from current version.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

i noticed that neumann revised the manual of 750. in the attached file, 1st connection was quoted from prior version and the next two from current version.

Hm, i don't remember the first one. Maybe they did not have the MA1 in mind with the first picture? If you don't use MA1, you can chose to connect them like it is shown in the first picture. Only when you use MA1 both subs need to receive the same stereo-signal.

 

[Spocko]

i received my 2nd 750 but got problem with ma1 when use below connection:
* analogue preamp, left output to left 750, right output to right 750;
* left 750 spdif to left 120ii & right 750 spdif to right 120ii; also tried
* left 750 xlr to left 120ii & right 750 xlr to right 120ii.
i got error message that "the subwoofers got different level signals". if i just connect one 750, i don't have the problem.
according to the on-screen instruction of ma1, i have to use a pair of y split cables to connect both 750s at same time to their L/R chennels to make sure both 750s receive same signals in the both channels. this is unexpected.

But at least the MA-1 now works with the KH120ii fine (after updated firmware)?