Need help expanding my 2.1 system into 2.2

[Megumin]

Greetings everyone, my first post here. Please be patient and if i somehow missed this being discussed elsewhere, please tell me. (or if this is the wrong place)

I am currently running two KEF R3's with a Yamaha R-N301 and a Versacube Sub connected via high-level input. Input is optical from TV. Have already done room correction using an UMIK-1 and REW and tbh it sounds pretty good so far.
One thing i am kind of missing though is a bit more low end extension. The Versacube sounds great for music imo but as i use my system for 80% movies/tv i think adding a second subwoofer would be nice. Thinking about building a Ripol as the concept seems interesting to me but i fear that i might not be able to integrate it into my system given that my receiver has no dedicated sub out.
Long term plan is to build a HT system (maybe 5.2).

Is there any way i could add another subwoofer without changing my receiver? Based on my research a miniDSP would be the most economical way to achieve this, or would a WIIM streamer make more sense? Or is there something i am missing about the R-N301 that would make this possible without buying another device?
Should i just bite the bullet and get a surround receiver with dedicated sub outs like the Yamaha V4A/V6A?

Anyway thanks in advance!

 

[dkinric]

@Megumin , welcome to ASR!

Curious how you are doing room correction? The R-N301 doesn't appear to have this?

IMO, if you want to build a good foundation for a system with sub(s), proper bass management is essential, which includes separately controlled sub outputs, a high pass on your main speakers to lower their distortion and for best bass control. I have the miniDSP Flex w/ Dirac in a 2.2 setup, and it's an outstanding product.

Many newer subs have remote-level adjustments, so you can quickly adjust the sub output on an app. As recordings can differ substantially in bass, I've found it's a great feature to have. Even with 2 Dirac corrected subs, I adjust this on the fly all the time.

 

[Megumin]

@Megumin , welcome to ASR!

Curious how you are doing room correction? The R-N301 doesn't appear to have this?

IMO, if you want to build a good foundation for a system with sub(s), proper bass management is essential, which includes separately controlled sub outputs, a high pass on your main speakers to lower their distortion and for best bass control. I have the miniDSP Flex w/ Dirac in a 2.2 setup, and it's an outstanding product.

Many newer subs have remote-level adjustments, so you can quickly adjust the sub output on an app. As recordings can differ substantially in bass, I've found it's a great feature to have. Even with 2 Dirac corrected subs, I adjust this on the fly all the time.

Room correction is admittedly pretty wonky as far as my setup goes. I generated PEQ filters with REW and then used a PEQ to GEQ converter script i found on github to incorporate the filters into wavelet which is running on my shield TV, which is of course connected to the TV.

I guess another positive side effect of getting a miniDSP would be that they can properly use PEQ. The WiiM streamers do not have sub outs or crossover as far as i can tell which means they are pretty much out...

Unfortunately neither my Versacube nor the Ripol i would like to build will have such apps, so no on the fly adjustments for me it seems.

Maybe a stupidly basic question, do sub outs on receivers even have crossovers? Or do they just assume you have an active sub with crossover built-in?
If not that would mean i need at least a miniDSP 2x4 right?

 

[dkinric]

I don't know much about receivers, I think you are correct that many don't have any bass management besides a sub out. At this early stage, you might consider whether to build a foundation for a 2.x system, or multichannel like Dolby Atmos. For a 2.x system for music, minidsp with Dirac and new class D amps is the way to go IMO. If surround/Dolby Atmos is your intent, you are better off looking at higher end receivers or pre/pro that includes all the features you want.

 

[staticV3]

Maybe a stupidly basic question, do sub outs on receivers even have crossovers? Or do they just assume you have an active sub with crossover built-in?

Sub outs on AVRs usually have a configurable low pass filter.

Many subwoofer manuals tell the user that if the sub is connected to an AVR's LFE port, then the sub's crossover knob should be set to LFE/Off, so that the AVR can handle the sub integration.

 

[staticV3]

I, too, don't see a good way of expanding your system to 2.2 using the R-N301.
And even less to proper surround sound, which the R-N301 seems entirely incapable of.

For 5.2 surround sound, I think you'd have to upgrade to either an AVR with Sub1 and Sub2 out, or to a miniDSP Flex HT or Flex HTx.

 

[DVDdoug]

but as i use my system for 80% movies/tv i think adding a second subwoofer would be nice.

Your receiver doesn't have a subwoofer output right? Without the subwoofer output you won't get the "point one" LFE channel! The front & surround channels contain "regular bass" but the LFE is not included in the stereo downmix.

 

[Megumin]

I don't know much about receivers, I think you are correct that many don't have any bass management besides a sub out. At this early stage, you might consider whether to build a foundation for a 2.x system, or multichannel like Dolby Atmos. For a 2.x system for music, minidsp with Dirac and new class D amps is the way to go IMO. If surround/Dolby Atmos is your intent, you are better off looking at higher end receivers or pre/pro that includes all the features you want.

since the ultimate goal is HT i guess i'll go the receiver route

Sub outs on AVRs usually have a configurable low pass filter.

Many subwoofer manuals tell the user that if the sub is connected to an AVR's LFE port, then the sub's crossover knob should be set to LFE/Off, so that the AVR can handle the sub integration.

thanks for clarifying that. so if i get a receiver which does the crossover for me i could just get a power amp for the sub i want to build and connect the Versacube i already have (which has a mivoc am 80 sub module) using the subs line in?

I, too, don't see a good way of expanding your system to 2.2 using the R-N301.
And even less to proper surround sound, which the R-N301 seems entirely incapable of.

For 5.2 surround sound, I think you'd have to upgrade to either an AVR with Sub1 and Sub2 out, or to a miniDSP Flex HT or Flex HTx.

yeah given what i've heard it looks like i'll try to sell my receiver and once it's gone get myself a better AVR. anyone got recommendations (preferably yamaha)?

Your receiver doesn't have a subwoofer output right? Without the subwoofer output you won't get the "point one" LFE channel! The front & surround channels contain "regular bass" but the LFE is not included in the stereo downmix.

that explains a lot... sounds pretty good with music but movies were underwhelming. makes a lot of sense now

 

[staticV3]

so if i get a receiver which does the crossover for me i could just get a power amp for the sub i want to build and connect the Versacube i already have (which has a mivoc am 80 sub module) using the subs line in?

Yes.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Megumin a key to perceived balanced bass is equal loudness compensation which by the way is not easy to integrate (at all) properly. Some of Denon AVR's, Yamaha amplifiers and R.M.E. interfaces (and DAC's have it). MiniDSP entire lineup lacks it and quality of filters is far from best (not to say sub optimal). Desktop PC and deacent multichannel DAC (interface/sound card) are still best way to get there with good and scalable software it's also most complicated one. Things get complicated when you want two separate chenels for bass as only cuple top end AVR's have such. It's up to you how to proceed and it's not a smooth easy ride anyway.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

Your receiver doesn't have a subwoofer output right? Without the subwoofer output you won't get the "point one" LFE channel! The front & surround channels contain "regular bass" but the LFE is not included in the stereo downmix.

That depends entirely on the downmix, no? LFE is not preserved entirely no matter what but it can be included to some extent

 

[Megumin]

The Yamaha V6A would fit the bill it seems, as it would allow me to add another sub and eventually expand to a surround setup. One thing i have been wondering is if i could use a fosi v3 mono as the amp for the diy sub i plan to build. I know that the Yamaha can handle the crossover but how about the volume control?

As far as i have understood the power amp just goes 100% and in the manual of the receiver i only see a "subwoofer trim" option that would be +-6db. That does not seem like a lot, am i missing something?

Or do i need a amp with volume control anyways?

 

[staticV3]

One thing i have been wondering is if i could use a fosi v3 mono as the amp for the diy sub i plan to build.

Yes.

I know that the Yamaha can handle the crossover but how about the volume control?

The Yamaha handles the crossover and naturally volume control for all analog outputs.

As far as i have understood the power amp just goes 100% and in the manual of the receiver i only see a "subwoofer trim" option that would be +-6db

The subwoofer trim is for aligning your subs to the mains. For volume control, you use the volume knob/remote/HDMI CEC.

 

[Megumin]

Yes.


The Yamaha handles the crossover and naturally volume control for all analog outputs.


The subwoofer trim is for aligning your subs to the mains. For volume control, you use the volume knob/remote/HDMI CEC.

thanks for clarifying! i knew that the overall volume would be set by the receiver but was worried that the base volume of the monoblock would be too high to align the volume of the sub to the main speakers.

just recently found out about these amps because i read the review here and for my plan it seems perfect

 

[staticV3]

thanks for clarifying! i knew that the overall volume would be set by the receiver but was worried that the base volume of the monoblock would be too high to align the volume of the sub to the main speakers.

just recently found out about these amps because i read the review here and for my plan it seems perfect

A pure Poweramp definitely bears the risk that you won't be able to align your sub using the mere ±6dB of trim on the Yamaha.

To mitigate that, you could add a passive attenuator like a Behringer Monitor1 in between the AVR and the Poweramp.

Alternatively, you could use an Amp with built-in volume control.

 

[er|κzvio1in]

That depends entirely on the downmix, no? LFE is not preserved entirely no matter what but it can be included to some extent

I've done a bit of research on this and the standards used are flexible. I understand that often LFE is often thrown away, but if you read for example the Netflix specification, it is suggested that the LFE channel may be added at -8 to -12 dB.

Netflix Sound Mix Specifications & Best Practices v1.5

Skip to Translations Table of Contents 1 Nearfield Audio Prerequisites for Mix Facilities 2.1 Near Field Atmos® Mix - Mastering and Archive - Original Language Version 2.2 Near Field 5.1 Surround M...

partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com

 

[Megumin]

A pure Poweramp definitely bears the risk that you won't be able to align your sub using the mere ±6dB of trim on the Yamaha.

To mitigate that, you could add a passive attenuator like a Behringer Monitor1 in between the AVR and the Poweramp.

Alternatively, you could use an Amp with built-in volume control.

i have had a look through the manual and besides the +-6dB subwoofer trim, there is also the +-10dB speaker level adjustment that one can set even for the sub. Other level adjustments i found are tone ones with once again +-6dB for bass, but that should probably stay unchanged.

Maybe i'll just go for it and if these level adjustments are still not enough i can have a look at some rca volume control or something, would rather not use XLR tbh.

One alternative to the monoblock would be the ZA3 which can be run mono as well, but i don't like that it does not have a auto-off / standby feature. The orange volume dial as well...

 

[phoenixdogfan]

As an alternative to a miniDSP unit, you might want to consider a sub which offers both High and Low pass filters. With such a sub, you just send a line level signal from your DAC and/or preamp to the sub, the sub low passes the signal to its own amp, and provides line level out to the amp for the satellites. Original SVS PB & SB 1000's or 2000's provided such a system. Probably other subs out there that offer the same.