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Need a New DAW / Streamer PC

Ron Party

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Besides the technical explanation that Vincent gave, it means you just plug the DAC in and Windows recognizes it all the way to the highest sample rate. Best part is that it also then gives you "WASAPI" interface means that programs like Roon, JRiver, etc. can then talk to it by bypassing Windows audio stack, giving you "bit exact" output.

I have now tested at least half a dozen DACs of all sorts this way and all I have done is plug them in. It is working surprisingly well.

This one did not work!
-e1392088150328.jpg
 
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watchnerd

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The thread got off on a tangent because I believe computers to be nothing more than tools and some are a bit fanatical. I find this a lot with Mac users, many that I have forgotten more about Apple products than they know.

Honestly, get Windows 10 Pro, turn off the shit that annoys you via Local Policy. Install Classic Shell. Spend $1000 on a kick ass custom build that will drive a 4K monitor with HDR and 10bit gamut.

AMD Ryzen 1600 $199
MSI B350 Pro-VH Mainboard for $56* Supports 4K @ 24Hz built in
Decent Case and PSU $120
16GB of DDR4 for $160
1TB Samsung EVO SSD 850 $284
$70 video card for 4K display for better than 24Hz refresh(not that Roon and Multi-tracking need it)
Wireless KB / Mouse for $20
Windows 10 Pro for $68

You land at a few $$ less than a thousand and it will kick ass for everything you need. Add what ever monitor you like.

LG 27UD68-p 27" 4K for $400 is a really nice monitor.

Look, you asked for a DAW when I believe you already have your mind set on something else prior to asking.

That's a decent set of HW, although I'd probably skip Windows entirely.
 

Jinjuku

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Hi Amir.

To run jriver and maybe roon one day. Like I posted, I keep my music on a NAS drive, so ethernet connection there. Then HDMI or USB to the SSP.

Since the computer is in the room, fan noise elimination would be nice. I know there are fanless PCs such as these:

https://silentpc.com/fanless-pcs/fanless-coffee-lake-pc

but it seems a bit pricey

Just get the J3455 based NUC for $129, add 4GB X 2 ($70) of LP DDR 204pin SO-DIMM (1.35v), add a 120GB SSD for $45. Just takes Philips screw driver and four screws. Easier than putting together
an Ikea desk drawer.
 

Jinjuku

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That's a decent set of HW, although I'd probably skip Windows entirely.

If Linux will do everything you want. We use linux on a daily basis for a lot of embedded stuff. It's a failure for me as a desktop. For me MS does some things really well.

No, Windows 10 isn't the spy in house (dumbest thing I've heard here). No it's not the malware and virus magnet people like to say it is (stop running with an admin account, I don't).

I use Classic Shell and that resolves the biggest issue I have.
 

amirm

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Hi Amir.

To run jriver and maybe roon one day. Like I posted, I keep my music on a NAS drive, so ethernet connection there. Then HDMI or USB to the SSP.

Since the computer is in the room, fan noise elimination would be nice. I know there are fanless PCs such as these:

https://silentpc.com/fanless-pcs/fanless-coffee-lake-pc

but it seems a bit pricey
Hi Ron. I did some searching but could not find a better choice. The one I built cost around this much and given the fact that it was fanless, it was a difficult build. If you get this one, upgrade it to i5 for the extra $100. You don't need it for music playback but can come in handy if you do room EQ, DSD to PCM conversion, etc.

I will post if I find something better.
 

Sal1950

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I would contact them and ask them why it doesn't work. Their firmware must not be fully class 2 compliant.
Still pretty sketchy in my experience. My fully updated Creators install recognized my Emo DC-1 and connected just fine with no issues.
That is until I tried to plug in a USB stick or drive, then it would refuse to connect to them telling me it didn't recognize the device?
Unplug the DC-1 and it falls back to recognizing my USB storage devices just fine?
Never put any time into investigating the issue as I don't use the Windoz partition for anything but doing my Quicken financial accounts.

Amir, when you get around to the DC-1 check it for the issue I had with Windows, curious if its the my OS or the DC-1
 

Blumlein 88

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If Linux will do everything you want. We use linux on a daily basis for a lot of embedded stuff. It's a failure for me as a desktop. For me MS does some things really well.

No, Windows 10 isn't the spy in house (dumbest thing I've heard here). No it's not the malware and virus magnet people like to say it is (stop running with an admin account, I don't).

I use Classic Shell and that resolves the biggest issue I have.

I am not sure I can agree with you. Had Win machines all the way back to Win 3.1 on a 286. Did start with Linux for some things maybe 10 years ago. The malware and updates are what proved to be a bridge too far. Don't run on admin accounts nor did I let relatives do that. Malware was a constant problem. Yes some of my friends and relatives did foolish things, but I even picked up some a handful of times. I also don't know if I would have stuck with Windows as long as I did without Classic Shell being available. Around two years ago I had migrated all relatives and most friends to either Linux or Chrome. Or they had migrated themselves to Ipads.

Recently it was just the stupid updates. If I ran my Win machine everyday it isn't quite so terrible of course. In recent years my desktop and a laptop run Linux. I only kept a Windows machine because of recording interfaces and a couple other items were Windows/Mac only. The Win box didn't get used every day or even every week. It always had to update. Yes, there are some ways to work around it, but too often when I turn that machine on it decided some update was more important than anything I might want to do with my hardware. This was even more bothersome as my location has slow internet access.

So the final straw was a few weeks ago, I planned on having a couple singers over to try some different microphones out. I pulled out my Windows 10 machine to turn it on and let it update to get everything out of the way. It had to restart twice and work its little self for quite awhile. Finally I checked and there were no more updates, everything was working. I turn it on to use the next afternoon, had disabled Wifi so it couldn't get any new updates. And this was one of those updates where it updates and shuts down, but it also has to finish the updates upon restarting. So we wait for some 20 minutes for it to work well enough for me to use my machine.

So yeah, I could get more involved to fix some of this. Why should I? None of my other devices treat me this way. Not my Android phones or tablet, not my Linux machines, not even a Chromebook I keep around. Why should I wrestle with my OS for my needs? We are way, way too far along for such things to be necessary. So I decided that day to bite the bullet, swallow my pride, and try a Macbook. I purchased a Macbook Pro second hand. It costs way too much for the hardware, but it does work. Even the High Sierra update update and the security faux paux were very Windows like. Yet it wasn't nearly as aggravating as a Win machine. So I can use that for items that are proprietary and need either Windows or Mac.

Now when I was working everything was Windows there, and I was one of the people who would be called to fix things when they went wrong. In hindsight, once I retired I should have quickly migrated away from Windows and told friends and relatives that like the cleaning lady I don't do Windows. I still think the Mac side is obscenely priced considering the hardware. I finally had enough of the little nagging issues that mean you are always adapting to the OS and messing with it rather than just using it. Windows has these problems which aren't all that much different than it was 20 years ago. I think it is a case of me being a slow learner.
 

Jinjuku

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I am not sure I can agree with you. Had Win machines all the way back to Win 3.1 on a 286. Did start with Linux for some things maybe 10 years ago. The malware and updates are what proved to be a bridge too far. Don't run on admin accounts nor did I let relatives do that. Malware was a constant problem. Yes some of my friends and relatives did foolish things, but I even picked up some a handful of times. I also don't know if I would have stuck with Windows as long as I did without Classic Shell being available. Around two years ago I had migrated all relatives and most friends to either Linux or Chrome. Or they had migrated themselves to Ipads.

I don't know what to say other than I have 5 Windows based machines (VDI Win8.1 , Win8.1 HTCP, Win10 Stereo PC, Win10 Workstation that's my Hypervisor, Win10 File server). My wife has an MS Surface Tablet. Stretching back 10 years (with Windows 7) I've yet to have any virus, malware, or other infestation.

And it's not like I'm garden walling either: Managed DNS, accounts of least privileges, Windows Defender. I use ad-block and no-script in the browser. I have updates set to simply download on My Workstation and I kick off the install when convenient for me . On the other machines I let MS manage it.

Bottom line, and I don't have a problem saying this: Anyone that claims malware is a 'constant problem' I can guarantee you that you are the constant problem and I've proven it time and again when I go and trouble shoot.

Recently it was just the stupid updates. If I ran my Win machine everyday it isn't quite so terrible of course. In recent years my desktop and a laptop run Linux. I only kept a Windows machine because of recording interfaces and a couple other items were Windows/Mac only. The Win box didn't get used every day or even every week. It always had to update. Yes, there are some ways to work around it, but too often when I turn that machine on it decided some update was more important than anything I might want to do with my hardware. This was even more bothersome as my location has slow internet access.

I use Pro editions of Windows and use the local machine policy to manage the machine behavior. I'm well versed with Arch and Ubuntu. As a matter of fact we just wrote an access control server for the Pi 3 with LAMP and also have an Asus Tinkerbox on the bench to see how much quicker it is (running Debian).

So the final straw was a few weeks ago, I planned on having a couple singers over to try some different microphones out. I pulled out my Windows 10 machine to turn it on and let it update to get everything out of the way. It had to restart twice and work its little self for quite awhile. Finally I checked and there were no more updates, everything was working. I turn it on to use the next afternoon, had disabled Wifi so it couldn't get any new updates. And this was one of those updates where it updates and shuts down, but it also has to finish the updates upon restarting. So we wait for some 20 minutes for it to work well enough for me to use my machine.

I'll tell you what I tell my customers: If you are running this for production environments don't use Home Editions. Get Pro at the very least. If you get Ultimate or Enterprise you can even utilize AppLocker and gardenwall your Windows box in addition to controlling how updates are handled. It's all in there for 100% control of your compute environment.

So yeah, I could get more involved to fix some of this. Why should I? None of my other devices treat me this way. Not my Android phones or tablet, not my Linux machines, not even a Chromebook I keep around. Why should I wrestle with my OS for my needs? We are way, way too far along for such things to be necessary. So I decided that day to bite the bullet, swallow my pride, and try a Macbook. I purchased a Macbook Pro second hand. It costs way too much for the hardware, but it does work. Even the High Sierra update update and the security faux paux were very Windows like. Yet it wasn't nearly as aggravating as a Win machine. So I can use that for items that are proprietary and need either Windows or Mac.

Bottom line is those platforms, for me, have some major shortcomings. I really needed bullet proof way to virtualize my desktop and make it available around the globe, locked down, and all I need travel with is nice sub $400 laptop. If it's stolen none of my critical and financial data went with it.

Now when I was working everything was Windows there, and I was one of the people who would be called to fix things when they went wrong. In hindsight, once I retired I should have quickly migrated away from Windows and told friends and relatives that like the cleaning lady I don't do Windows. I still think the Mac side is obscenely priced considering the hardware. I finally had enough of the little nagging issues that mean you are always adapting to the OS and messing with it rather than just using it. Windows has these problems which aren't all that much different than it was 20 years ago. I think it is a case of me being a slow learner.

Some will pay 300% price premium, others will figure out other ways. Windows Pro edition seems to have done the trick for me. I don't get nagged, I'm not surprised by updates nor inconvienced, I've yet to have a malware or virus infection. I simply have a file that I import via the local machine policy and my environment is all done.

To each their own but I do feel compelled to dispel your myths about Windows Environments. All your issues are user correctable. You could have even bought a Windows based PC and spent $200 on a tech to setup the machine the way you want. Create a system image of the configured machine and you still would have been hundreds, if not a $1000, ahead of the curve.
 

Blumlein 88

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I don't know what to say other than I have 5 Windows based machines (VDI Win8.1 , Win8.1 HTCP, Win10 Stereo PC, Win10 Workstation that's my Hypervisor, Win10 File server). My wife has an MS Surface Tablet. Stretching back 10 years (with Windows 7) I've yet to have any virus, malware, or other infestation.

And it's not like I'm garden walling either: Managed DNS, accounts of least privileges, Windows Defender. I use ad-block and no-script in the browser. I have updates set to simply download on My Workstation and I kick off the install when convenient for me . On the other machines I let MS manage it.

Bottom line, and I don't have a problem saying this: Anyone that claims malware is a 'constant problem' I can guarantee you that you are the constant problem and I've proven it time and again when I go and trouble shoot.



I use Pro editions of Windows and use the local machine policy to manage the machine behavior. I'm well versed with Arch and Ubuntu. As a matter of fact we just wrote an access control server for the Pi 3 with LAMP and also have an Asus Tinkerbox on the bench to see how much quicker it is (running Debian).



I'll tell you what I tell my customers: If you are running this for production environments don't use Home Editions. Get Pro at the very least. If you get Ultimate or Enterprise you can even utilize AppLocker and gardenwall your Windows box in addition to controlling how updates are handled. It's all in there for 100% control of your compute environment.



Bottom line is those platforms, for me, have some major shortcomings. I really needed bullet proof way to virtualize my desktop and make it available around the globe, locked down, and all I need travel with is nice sub $400 laptop. If it's stolen none of my critical and financial data went with it.



Some will pay 300% price premium, others will figure out other ways. Windows Pro edition seems to have done the trick for me. I don't get nagged, I'm not surprised by updates nor inconvienced, I've yet to have a malware or virus infection. I simply have a file that I import via the local machine policy and my environment is all done.

To each their own but I do feel compelled to dispel your myths about Windows Environments. All your issues are user correctable. You could have even bought a Windows based PC and spent $200 on a tech to setup the machine the way you want. Create a system image of the configured machine and you still would have been hundreds, if not a $1000, ahead of the curve.

That is more or less all true. But I finally had enough of the little nagging issues that mean you are adapting to the OS and messing with it rather than just using it.

See your long description is the things I need to do. I am the problem or at least potentially the problem. None of my other devices require this of me. Windows should have this worked out better than they have.

Bottom line, and I don't have a problem saying this: Anyone that claims malware is a 'constant problem' I can guarantee you that you are the constant problem and I've proven it time and again when I go and trouble shoot.

And you'll notice I didn't say it was a constant problem for me. It wasn't. Well except for the people who called me needing/asking for help. I agree the user was the problem when that is the case. The obvious thing is once I managed people I know onto a user friendly Linux or a Chromebook/Chromebox all those calls about their self inflicted problems disappeared. There are calls about how to do something at maybe 5% the level of calls I once received from them. I no longer need to maintain remote access to their machine to regularly fix what they let happen to it. There are no trouble shooting calls. It is a gobsmacking difference. This difference didn't require any user correction.

I too long held the opinion people should bother to learn a little bit about how stuff works if they are going to use it for important things. However, once competing products manage the trick without users needing a large knowledge base to use the system, it works out better for most people. It can be more convenient even for those who could manage it, but find more interesting things to do with their time.

Some people need an automatic transmission. Some like myself prefer the manual even though autos work awfully well these days. Some who can do both come to prefer the automatic. I suppose I have slipped into the latter category in terms of my computer systems.
 

Jinjuku

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And you'll notice I didn't say it was a constant problem for me. It wasn't. Well except for the people who called me needing/asking for help. I agree the user was the problem when that is the case. The obvious thing is once I managed people I know onto a user friendly Linux or a Chromebook/Chromebox all those calls about their self inflicted problems disappeared. There are calls about how to do something at maybe 5% the level of calls I once received from them. I no longer need to maintain remote access to their machine to regularly fix what they let happen to it. There are no trouble shooting calls. It is a gobsmacking difference. This difference didn't require any user correction.

I too long held the opinion people should bother to learn a little bit about how stuff works if they are going to use it for important things. However, once competing products manage the trick without users needing a large knowledge base to use the system, it works out better for most people. It can be more convenient even for those who could manage it, but find more interesting things to do with their time.

The same holds for me on other platforms however. They have problems, nagging or otherwise, that simply make it a deal breaker for me.

As far a friends and family are concerned I don't get bothered with it close to not at all. We just have different experiences. I use a Windows 10 Pro machine all day, everyday, and it's not getting in my way. I baffled as to others struggles but it may be me.

Ironically in the not to distant past I've spent more time on helping users with the iMac's than any Windows stuff after the latest OS X update.
 

Blumlein 88

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The same holds for me on other platforms however. They have problems, nagging or otherwise, that simply make it a deal breaker for me.

As far a friends and family are concerned I don't get bothered with it close to not at all. We just have different experiences. I use a Windows 10 Pro machine all day, everyday, and it's not getting in my way. I baffled as to others struggles but it may be me.

Ironically in the not to distant past I've spent more time on helping users with the iMac's than any Windows stuff after the latest OS X update.

Well using one everyday all day is better than sporadically. Maybe it is the level of Winfu of your relatives or friends. I have some friends capable and not needing my help. BTW, I've never run anything other than Pro or Enterprise versions on my own hardware.

As to whether OS X will be more trouble or not I can't say. That will take time. If Linux didn't have a few issues with interfacing to some devises or to ASIO devices I wouldn't use anything else other than Android on my phone.
 

Sal1950

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Well using one everyday all day is better than sporadically. Maybe it is the level of Winfu of your relatives or friends. I have some friends capable and not needing my help. BTW, I've never run anything other than Pro or Enterprise versions on my own hardware.

As to whether OS X will be more trouble or not I can't say. That will take time. If Linux didn't have a few issues with interfacing to some devises or to ASIO devices I wouldn't use anything else other than Android on my phone.
As you know I'm in 100% agreement with you Dennis. I been running a Linux desktop for over 15 years now for 99.9 % of my computer needs. As mentioned before the only reason I keep a Windoz partition is to run my Quicken financial software a few times a week. Win 10 Creator is the most aggravating POS of the lot with it's constant updates taking over the computer about every 3rd time I boot into it. Hear the same from all the residents in my community in the daily discussions, screaming they can't use the dang thing for a half hour every time they need it.
Jinjuku, for a pro level user like yourself Doz may be an acceptable OS, but most layman I know are frustrated beyond patience with it. Been the same since the boon of the internet and the attacks of malware, virus, and the lot. A huge industry was built around either vainly trying to keep a box running or tech time to clean up unusable boxes for the average Joe. Even Amir has posted a few times here on having driver issues he had to have his son help him thru...
My Linux boxes have been rock solid without ever the need for any anti-virus or other special security measures for a decade and a half now. Imagine most OS X users can say the same.
 
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watchnerd

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If Linux will do everything you want. We use linux on a daily basis for a lot of embedded stuff. It's a failure for me as a desktop. For me MS does some things really well.

No, Windows 10 isn't the spy in house (dumbest thing I've heard here). No it's not the malware and virus magnet people like to say it is (stop running with an admin account, I don't).

I use Classic Shell and that resolves the biggest issue I have.

I used Linux as a desktop for many years. I wouldn't recommend it to friends, but I'm comfortable with it. And there are some decent DAW suites that run on it..and of course, Roon does, too.

That being said, I'm a little surprised that thread has degenerated into an OS war (well, maybe I shouldn't be surprised...), as opposed to a discussion of the system architecture requirements of a good DAW.

i.e. CPU speed doesn't matter much, # of cores matters a bit more. RAM, bus speed, and storage IO are the real gating factors, in my experience.
 

amirm

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That being said, I'm a little surprised that thread has degenerated into an OS war (well, maybe I shouldn't be surprised...), as opposed to a discussion of the system architecture requirements of a good DAW.
Me too. Let's not go there anymore please.
 

Blumlein 88

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Sorry I carried the thread off topic. I thought someone coming from a Mac and getting Windows might want to know some of the pitfalls. So it was not horribly off topic and didn't intend to start an OS war.

Anyone have any input on running Roon on a capable NAS? That seems like it could be a good alternative.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS
 
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watchnerd

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Sorry I carried the thread off topic. I thought someone coming from a Mac and getting Windows might want to know some of the pitfalls. So it was not horribly off topic and didn't intend to start an OS war.

Anyone have any input on running Roon on a capable NAS? That seems like it could be a good alternative.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS

It doesn't seem cost effective, if you follow their recommended config -- $2k for the combination of case, spindle drives, SSD drives.

For that money, you could buy a PC...
 
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I would contact them and ask them why it doesn't work. Their firmware must not be fully class 2 compliant.

Did so, received new firmware which bricked the unit. No response from them after this.
 
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