My Problem With Inexpensive Electronics

[Martin]

Topping makes amps and DACS with SOTA measurements, no argument there. What I have issue with is that the engineering and reliability of the components seem suspect. And when you contact Topping their standard response is to send the unit back to China for repair.

I own a D50 with burn in so bad the screen is very difficult to nearly impossible to read. (OLED should NEVER be used for a static display.) I also own a DX7 Pro whose rotary encoder volume control acts like a random number generator. Luckily the remote works perfectly.

I like rolling through equipment and use EBay sales of existing equipment to fund new purchases. These problems means I’m likely to get pennies on the dollar when I decide to sell them. Sending them back to China and paying to have them repaired is prohibitively expensive.

Topping (and likely other inexpensive components) are, in essence, disposable products. I refuse to buy any more disposable components, no matter how well they measure.

Martin

 

[pma]

So it goes, people want to buy cheap. Reliability and engineering quality then suffers. It costs money. We, western world, are responsible for this situation, permanent pressure on costs reduction as a mantra.

 

[Atanasi]

The consumer cannot know the quality easily, so they pay for what they know. This is the Market for Lemons problem.

 

[MRC01]

As an engineer, I appreciate the effort to get the best objective measurable quality at the minimum price. It's the antithesis of what audiophilia has become. Yet the effort can go too far, leading to disposable gear. I will pay significantly more for well engineered gear or components that are built to last for decades. I find personal satisfaction in avoiding disposable gear and enjoy the visual & tactile experience of high build quality. My current equipment reflects this, some of it is 20+ years old and still performing to specification.

To his credit, @amirm does mention when an item he's reviewing seems well above or below standard build quality. But it can be hard to assess when you only have equipment for a few days, unless you can take it apart.

 

[witchdoctor]

Thanks for posting this, I'll keep it in mind when shopping for my next DAC.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I've owned several Topping products. None of them have had any reliability issues. But, they are very inexpensive. I know going in that they probably won't be ten year items. If I get a couple years out of them I'm very satisfied...they really are close to disposable items. I don't have a problem with that.

And it's worth noting that spending more is by no means any assurance of reliability. I've owned more expensive items that crapped out within a couple years.

 

[dlieb]

I have also had several Topping products. The only problem I had was the infamous DX3 Pro headphone blow-up. They did end up fixing that, even out-of-warranty. However, shipping the unit to China was quite expensive and it took a few months to get it back.

I find myself ambivalent about brands like Topping. The fidelity offered for the price is truly outstanding. However, I worry about the environmental impact of semi-disposable products, especially when brands like Bryston make products that will last several decades. My own compromise has been to try and only buy mature products with some 'field-testing' that are likely to satisfy my own needs for a very long time. For instance, my Sabaj D5 has been perfect and I don't see myself needing to upgrade it as long as it works.

 

[NgtFlyer]

I own three Topping products. E30, L30 and PA3. I have a friend who also has a PA3 and a D10s
I also have SMSL AD18 and SA300.
My PA3 has a slight volume imbalance at the very bottom. And I mean, right at the bottom. It is fine at any normal listening level.
Zero issues with either my E30 or L30. I feel that while there is a desire to build the highest performing devices possible, I also believe that they desire to build it to be more durable as well. At least from my small vantage point, that seems to be the case.
That being said, outside of obvious reviews, I do a lot of forum reading before buying things, to find any common issues with them.
As for the SMSL AD18, the volume encoder has sort of a cheap feel to it but it works fine. My SA300 has a better quality feel to it and it and it also works perfectly.

 

[witchdoctor]

This is how JBL tests their speakers for durability and one of the reasons I own JBL:

 

[anmpr1]

I refuse to buy any more disposable components, no matter how well they measure.

Yours is an understandable sentiment. But almost any modern computer-like component is going to be 'unrepairable' if the company that makes it goes south. If it's out of warranty you have to ask yourself, "Is repair worth it?"

Generally, if you want something that is built to high standards you'll pay for those standards.

Consider: a Benchmark DAC3 (I mention them because they are representative of well made gear and everyone knows about them) is going to cost you $1700.00 to $2100.00, depending upon configuration, with a five year warranty. The company has been around a while, so you might reasonably expect they will be around for a while longer. Because of all that, if you live in the US it's not a problem sending the item back for repair. Alternately, you could spend a lot more and get something equal, but probably not built appreciably better. Or, you can spend a lot less money and get something comparable, spec-wise, but not built as well. In that case, you throw it away if it breaks, and buy something new--rinse and repeat four or five more times until you reach the price of the DAC-3.

From a general consumer point of view, the only gear that was ever really repairable by the average non-technical oriented person were kits like Dyna, Eico, Scott et al. In the hey day of hi-fi, there were multiple 'factory authorized' consumer repair stations in most cities, within driving range. Today it's an entirely different universe. Who today could repair a broken DAC-3?

If I lived in Shenzhen I'd be interested in owning Topping. Why not? Besides, you'd need something that inexpensive in order to afford the rent over there! But I don't, so I won't.

 

[Χ Ξ Σ]

My $800 CEntrance Hi-Fi M8 portable amp developed a noise when turning the volume knob after a few years.
My $4300 Simaudio Neo Moon 430HAD headphone amp developed a humming in the transformer after a few months.
My $9000 Bricasti M1SE DAC developed a balance issue among the four isolator feet after a year.
It wasn't cheap sending them to the east coast or to Canada either.

I then discovered ASR, got rid of those premium gears, and bought the Topping D90 and A90. To be honest the Topping's metal finishing is much sturdy than that of the Simaudio and Bricasti, they are more insusceptible to scratches and marks. The two premium gears are heavier but very prone to cosmetic flaws. You have to treat them with extra care as if they are your babies.

Recently I decided to spend less on electronics and more on speakers so I went with the $170 Motu M2 for my studio monitors. I ended up buying 6 units and returned 4 units because all of them have either cosmetic or display issues. The 2 units that I keep are not perfect, but I no longer cared about having a perfect unit after trying 6 samples.

What I am trying to say is that buying expensive, made-in-USA, or made-in-Canada products does not guarantee built quality either. Most audio manufacturers, regardless of where they are located, are small workshops in essence and simply cannot live up to the QC standard of the bigger companies. Grado and Schitt come to mind.

And we definitely never companied about the QC of bigger companies like JBL, am I right?

 

[anmpr1]

What I am trying to say is that buying expensive, made-in-USA, or made-in-Canada products does not guarantee built quality either.

No. It doesn't. One has to discriminate among manufacturers. However, my guess is that a Bryston amp, just because it is a Bryston, is going to be a pretty good guarantee of top tier build quality. And if it does break, you can always fall back on an almost lifetime (at least it's a lifetime if you are my age) warranty!

 

[Martin]

I was planning to replace my Topping DX7 Pro with a Topping A90/D90 stack at $1,200. I have decided to spend more for peace of mind and warranty. I’m going to sell my preamplifier and purchase a Benchmark HPA4/DAC3 B stack for $4,800. So minus the $800 I expect to get from the sale of my preamp I’m spending $2,800 more for components I expect to own for many, many years. I also know if I ever decide to sell the Benchmark gear I’ll get back a good chunk of my money.

Martin

 

[escape2]

OLED should NEVER be used for a static display.

What would be a better technology for this?

 

[Universal Cereal Bus]

No. It doesn't. One has to discriminate among manufacturers. However, my guess is that a Bryston amp, just because it is a Bryston, is going to be a pretty good guarantee of top tier build quality. And if it does break, you can always fall back on an almost lifetime (at least it's a lifetime if you are my age) warranty!

Bryston, being a Canadian manufacturer, should extend their warranty from 20 years to 25 years. A "life sentence" in Canada is 25 years* so this would be a great marketing opportunity. They could spin some variation of a "lifetime sentence warranty".

*25 years without the chance of parole. Sentences without chance of parole greater than 25 years are unconstitutional. Life sentences are, for the most part, effectively true life sentences unless the parole board fucks up.

 

[Putter]

The problem is that technology MAKES items disposable. Anyone up for a state of the art cassette deck? How about using a state of the art Dolby Surround AV receiver for your Atmos system? How about a picture tube TV? Or if you want to leave audio, how about buying a brand new car with a carburetor instead of fuel injection, no air bags or accident avoidance tech or bluetooth? It is certainly possible that these items could be made more cheaply (although not always), but you'd at best find a limited or non existent market.

As for people wanting to buy 'cheap' products, it almost seems like blaming the victim. Without getting too political, discretionary income has decreased for the majority while increasing for a small minority.

 

[MRC01]

... I own a D50 with burn in so bad the screen is very difficult to nearly impossible to read. (OLED should NEVER be used for a static display.) ...

What would be a better technology for this?

For static displays, LCD is a better choice, and there are other alternatives. OLED displays have infinite contrast ratio and excellent picture quality, but static displays will burn-in (become permanent).

 

[anmpr1]

The problem is that technology MAKES items disposable.

I remember someone telling me they were disappointed in the 'build quality' of their PC. I told them that they didn't want a PC built like a McIntosh amp. In five years, when parts start to fail, or Windows Update no longer runs, they'll want something twice or four times faster. Who in their right mind would want to be stuck with a 386SX-16 that refuses to die?

 

[Colonel7]

So it goes, people want to buy cheap. Reliability and engineering quality then suffers. It costs money. We, western world, are responsible for this situation, permanent pressure on costs reduction as a mantra.

Don't think this has to do with the western world as strawman. Many industries growth is in China and east Asia more generally, and you have Chinese companies leading it with their own customers pressure for low costs. Same with capitalism that gets bandied about here sometimes without thinking

 

[amirm]

I think any failure in what we use is stressful and cheap and easily solutions rarely exist. Our German dishwasher failed. It cost $600 to repair it that involved replacing a $20 part. They would even refuse to come to our house saying we were outside of their service area! This is a nearly $3,000 dishwasher which they happily sold us without saying they wouldn't want to service it. We have a second dishwasher from the same brand that cost $1000 and the service tech declared it instantly as not fixable and go get a new one! New one with install costs $1,500. We have barely used the broken one.

Our Samsung TV died. Everyone else would throw it out but I went through hell repairing it. Got a replacement board that was more faulty than the one I had. Of course picture quality is nowhere as good as new units so I wonder why I spent the time.

Have a POE switch that failed. Simple power supply problem but with surface mount parts, no way to repair it. Was just out of warranty. Did I want the hassle of sending back to them for repair even though they are in US? Nope. Bought another from Amazon.

Have emissions sensors failing in our Mercedes van. Thankfully they have extended warranty on it but otherwise would cost a few thousand dollars! And the problem is common as dirt. Took nearly two weeks just to get a hold of the local dealer and convince them to repair it. They then said it would be nearly a month before they could take it in!

In all the gear I have tested, I have had two failures: a Sony AVR and Devialet. Devialet actually had to go back to France. The Sony was $99 so not even worth bothering with warranty repair.

So I don't know that there is a good solution here. The days of a simple fuse going bad is long gone from our electronics....