Mobile Fidelity Analog Vinyl Controversy

[Iving]

Whether DSD vinyl is a good product, or can be distinguished from analogue-era 1st issues is moot. There are only opinions. All are equally subjective/legitimate.

The issue here is deception. wtf were MoFi doing, since possibly as early as 2007, selling DSD to customers many of whom MoFi must have understood wanted or thought they were buying AAA. The whole body of evidence comprises sins of both omission and commission. Some are implicit; some more blatant.

As far as lawsuit(s) go, the style or quantity of damages is not what matters. Nor whether lawyers make on the whole kerfuffle.

All the internet chatter, and threatened legal action no matter what outcomes, will likely have the effect of:
1. deterring shysters in the music retail industry; and,
2. soothing the understandable indignation of people who bought MoFi records because they wanted analogue musical experiences (regardless of any SQ arguments).
So - chat on.

 

[DMill]

I'm choosing to not over think this one. Mofi just won't get my money & simple as that. I don't personally know anyone who will give Mofi anymore $. If this is realistic sample of things to come for them they are in near future financial trouble. There is many places to go other then Music Direct

I certainly understand why you feel this way. It seems that MoFi has dug themselves into a pretty deep pit. The notion of giving a full refund to past buyers seems impossible to me. The costs of tracking, shipping, and processing refunds to past buyers would surely put them out of business. Deception aside, which I believe occurred here, is there anything you feel they could do to make it right to you? Also curious if you feel their remasters sounded better (again, I know that’s not the point.) but I’m curious all the same

 

[FrantzM]

The HEA seems to be quite forgiving. They need to find he proper fixer and it will go probably go away. Deception is part and parcel of the HEA. Where else can a person buy a box of ...dirt for $5,000.oo? ... I spoke too fast: someone is selling the smell of her vagina for $75... so ...
MoFi will resurface with a fully audited fully analog and tube chain of production to atone.. You'll see.

Peace.

 

[MCH]

Do you guys love music?
Whatever company that puts its efforts and money in getting trained people travelling around to get quality copies of masters of great music that otherwise were collecting dust in shelves of majors that couldn't care less and out of reach of anyone else, has my approval. And I also think it is a shame if they dissappear. I don't think I own any of their products but I am happy they exist if it is true they are so good. What is more, now I think I should buy something to support them somehow, s***!

118,000 to 175,000 master tapes burning in Los Angeles in 2008

 

[krabapple]

I'm choosing to not over think this one. Mofi just won't get my money & simple as that. I don't personally know anyone who will give Mofi anymore $. If this is realistic sample of things to come for them they are in near future financial trouble. There is many places to go other then Music Direct

If they begin offering digital releases from their DSD transfers of original master tapes, I'll certainly start giving MofI $.

 

[Robin L]

If they begin offering digital releases from their DSD transfers of original master tapes, I'll certainly start giving MofI $.

But that would be a SACD.

I have no objection to SACDs, but this just points to how ridiculous LPs are in year 2022. Every single thing the LP transfer does reduces fidelity. There is no enhancement of a hi-rez digital file by virtue of transferring it to the analog domain via LP. For the end user, there's not enough difference between SACDs and BluRay audio, though in theory things favor the BluRay. Doubles for video, used players are cheap, Sony's play SACDs.

Can't claim to have the best gear or ears. However, some of that gear was pretty good and I worked in pro audio for more than a few years. Can't say that the best SACDs I've heard are better than the best CDs or BluRay Audio discs I've heard. However, I almost always hear IGD. And the bulk of LPs I've owned had easily noticeable surface noise.

Whatever this tempest in a teapot might be, it has little to do with music but a lot to do with collecting.

 

[krabapple]

But that would be a SACD.

It needn't be. I purposely did not write 'SACD'. I wrote 'digital release from their DSD transfers'. As in 'sourced from'.

 

[mhardy6647]

It needn't be. I purposely did not write 'SACD'. I wrote 'digital release from their DSD transfers'. As in 'sourced from'.

Who knows?
Maybe the hipsters'll bring back DVD-A.
Perhaps something Jack White'll want to get involved with -- or T-Bone Burnett.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

It’s an online myth that all analog sounds better, There’s nothing analog can do that digital cannot do as well or better.

I do admit there are some very good sounding analog pressings from back in the day, and I don’t want to detract from them.

I’ve heard it said ever since the recording studios went digital, that our records sounded like a CD. Bright, brittle, harsh ______ feel free to add your own adjective.

Especially in the last 10 years, I found that many of the newer releases on vinyl are done very well. Finding one that’s not warped is a different story, because that’s one area of new vinyl that I do not think is done as well as it used to be.

 

[tmtomh]

I’ve heard it said ever since the recording studios went digital, that our records sounded like a CD. Bright, brittle, harsh ______ feel free to add your own adjective.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm in my 50s and first got into hi-fi when I was about 12-13 years old, around 1981-82. At that time, digital recording was considered cutting edge, and because CDs had not yet become available, LPs cut from digital recordings were considered the most hi-fi medium a consumer could get. Most hi-fi and audiophile showrooms would have digital-sourced LPs in their stacks of demo music, and my recollection is that audiophile LPs made from digital recordings were well-reviewed in the hi-fi magazines at the time.

It was only later, when some audio reviewers decided that early CDs players sounded bad, that "digital sound" became a pejorative term.

Apologies for repeating myself, as I've said it here before in another thread, but I would argue strongly that historically this was the moment when a major part of the hi-fi and audiophile community parted ways with engineering and measurements and went off into the hyper-subjectivist ideology that we content with and talk about so much today.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm in my 50s and first got into hi-fi when I was about 12-13 years old, around 1981-82. At that time, digital recording was considered cutting edge, and because CDs had not yet become available, LPs cut from digital recordings were considered the most hi-fi medium a consumer could get. Most hi-fi and audiophile showrooms would have digital-sourced LPs in their stacks of demo music, my recollection is that audiophile LPs made from digital recordings were well-reviewed in the hi-fi magazines at the time.

It was only later, when some audio reviewers decided that early CDs players sounded bad, that "digital sound" became a pejorative term.

Apologies for repeating myself, as I've said it here before in another thread, but I would argue strongly that historically this was the moment when a major part of the hi-fi and audiophile community parted ways with engineering and measurements and went off into the hyper-subjectivist ideology that we content with and talk about so much today.

I’m also glad that you posted this, and I did not follow as closely back in the day as I do today. It was probably sometime in the 1990s that the myth started exploding, with the internet influence increasing.

I believed those lies for a long time, and went to great lengths to make sure everything was analog.

Now I am enlightened, have a DSP & DAC in my vinyl chain and it’s never sounded better.

 

[MarkS]

I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm in my 50s and first got into hi-fi when I was about 12-13 years old, around 1981-82. At that time, digital recording was considered cutting edge, and because CDs had not yet become available, LPs cut from digital recordings were considered the most hi-fi medium a consumer could get.

This was by no means a universal opinion. Digital recording was controversial from the very start.

 

[Labjr]

IMO, analog, vinyl and tubes etc. is for people who like nostalgia. That's what people were paying for when they paid more than $100 for one recording. Otherwise they probably could have bought the SACD for $29. Digital recording is now superior to analog recording. So unless there's something that's only available on vinyl or the digital transfer is not as good as the original vinyl, I don't personally see a use for playing records anymore.

 

[tmtomh]

If you are going to make a business out of selling to religious believers, then you have a duty to follow the practices of the religion in the making of your product. MoFi did not, and lied about it. IMO they deserve to go out of business for that.

And I say that while in no way being a member of the religion. I have not bought a vinyl record since CDs came on the market in 1984.

I haven't bought vinyl since then either. But that's the point, isn't it? MoFi didn't just sell to "religious believers." They make an almost uniformly great product, and for about 35 years or more that product has included digital discs. So I think it's a pretty common-sense idea that it would be a shame if this whole episode put them out of business. Yes of course if they lied then whatever happens is totally on them. But it would still be a shame, precisely because their lie was told to placate irrationality.

 

[MarkS]

Do they "make an almost uniformly great product" though? Remember their gold CDs? Here's an interesting story about them:

Has anyone compared Santana's Abraxas MOFI Gold CD versions?

Are there are any differences between the original MOFI Gold version of Abraxas compared to the one currently available? I ask as you can buy the newer...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[Blumlein 88]

Do they "make an almost uniformly great product" though? Remember their gold CDs? Here's an interesting story about them:

Has anyone compared Santana's Abraxas MOFI Gold CD versions?

Are there are any differences between the original MOFI Gold version of Abraxas compared to the one currently available? I ask as you can buy the newer...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

A bunch of scattershot comments with every possible combination of opinions about which is best. What does this tell us? And while various people had different opinions about which version was best, they didn't complain any of the versions were bad.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Because objectively what MoFi is doing is the best known method. No more wearing out the original master tape and future copies of the digitized master will be identical to the first generation and audibly transparent to master tape.
But for some purity to the religion is of supreme importance. Infidels and apostates must be destroyed.

I am not a lawyer. But however I think for the lawsuit to succeed, they would have to prove damage, and put a dollar amount to it if they want compensation.

Because what objectively crooked jeweler MobFidelityGold is doing is the best known method for deceiving unsuspected customers – selling 14 karat gold alloy (50% gold) ingot/bar to them as a genuine pure 24 karat gold (>99.7% gold) ingot/bar and charging the same price as a pure 24 karat gold bar. No more 100% depleting/wearing gold mines, just 50%, which means double amount of years available resources from gold mines around the world and greener Earth because of 50% less polluting from producing technology. All 14 karat gold bars from MobFidelityGold will be identical in color compared to genuine 24 karat gold bars and indistinguishable even by Golden Eye individuals.
But for some, required purity of >99.7% gold is of supreme importance in their religion of worshiping the "24 karat God". Sadly, infidels and apostates, which believe there is nothing wrong selling the 14 karat gold bar at the same price as 24 karat gold (because both have the same color), must be destroyed.

And now seriously: I am not a lawyer, @NTK. But I am not dumb either, you know? It is easy to prove this scam and is easy to put the exact dollar ammount to it for compensation - the same dollar ammount payed for their "14 karat gold presented as 24 karat" products.
P.S
Yes, I know 14 karat gold has not exactly the same color as 24 karat, but I believe you understood my point...

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I haven't bought vinyl since then either. But that's the point, isn't it? MoFi didn't just sell to "religious believers." They make an almost uniformly great product, and for about 35 years or more that product has included digital discs. So I think it's a pretty common-sense idea that it would be a shame if this whole episode put them out of business. Yes of course if they lied then whatever happens is totally on them. But it would still be a shame, precisely because their lie was told to placate irrationality.

I’ll be honest, at this stage of my music listening life so to speak I can just kind of chuckle this off, because the irony is just off the chart. But back in the day when I was a 100% analog snob I would’ve been more than disappointed. I owned quite a few of their pressings at one time, and some of them were very well done. But I also stopped buying them around 2015, so chances are I never bought one with DSD involved.

Again the irony of this off the chart, and proves that digital can sound just as good, and in many cases better than pure analog.

 

[Iving]

It's still barely 48 hrs since this video was broadcast live - and it's provoking a fair bit of online chatter:

Bernie Goodman is the voice of mastering experience. Ryan K. Smith is visibly respectful. Chad Kassem is motormouth, and we hope that his solicited "trust" in AP AAA vinyl output will be vindicated in the long run.

The whole broadcast is nearly 2.5 hrs. Here are my notes in case interest for anyone who fancies dipping in:

00.00.00 BG: Trust your ears / Music is a complex signal (defies bench measurement) / Everything matters [later says we [mastering engineers] listen to wire when he laments AES/EBU for D-D transmission as it carries both channels AND clock] / At work BG needs a neutral system but at home has something more "hypey" / Talks about emotion and connection and how mastering facilitates those aspects

00:10:40 Importance of earliest generation (tape source) / Difference between accurate and "clean" being tied to first/early generation and EQ to make something you could like more / No perfect digital copy / RKS says the earlier the generation the closer to how the artist intended (because that is what was passed)

00:13:15 BG: Likes that he stays in audiophile market (doing reissues) / Doesn't like Loudness and pandering to customers for Loudness / Loudness irritates

00:14:40 CK talking about DR / BG talking about discs i.e. vinyl records: complex signal + obstacle course for stylus + loud enough to get above noise floor for vinyl + speed at rim vs. speed at label therefore "clearer" at edge

00:23:10 BG: Younger people listening to vinyl - demands attention - involvement - listen and do nothing else at same time

00:24:00 Prefer analogue copy of tape or digital copy to work with? BG answers firmly that *analogue* tape has greater longevity / Careful storage important / Tapes get wear by repeated play / Many 50s tapes are in great condition

00:28:25 BG can repair analogue tapes with alt. CD material

00:32:00 Labels have not been looking after tapes / Not thinking of posterity

00:35:40 Quality of press in recent years - Vinyl sellers seeing returns as acceptable price of volume business

00:36:20 Controversy BG involvement in analogue reissue of 'Thriller'

00:39:30 Discussion about getting hold of original tapes

00:45:35 Extraordinary condition of KOB tape [in mid-1990s] - no splices

00:55:45 Mastering mojo variable - one day sounds great - the next maybe not - not always understanding why

01:04:00 Talking about "Original Master Recording" and what that means / BG repeats generational copies will never be as "clean" / VMP copying an analogue tape still leaves possibility of AAA

01:10:00 CK talking about comparing AP issues with originals [analogue-era 1st issues]

01:13:26 CK: "There's only one original ... a tape copy - or worse - a *digital* tape copy"

01:19:00 BG on digital - low level - how ambience is lost / digital permeates / makes everything sound the same / "disease" [gets smile from CK]

01:21:45 RKS: Working with PCM not DSD / CK: We're on 4 DSD / BG: With DSD things go bad / 44.1 16 bits good / It is [iterative] *processing* that does the damage with digital / Repeats digital problem of revealing ambience and high end info / Questions credentials of 192 downloads

01:27:20 BG: A straight [flat] digital copy will not sound as good / Here is where BG talks about AES/EBU wrt jitter etc inc. re-clocking

01:35:00 Discussion quality pf press / CK "****ty pressing plant" [btw heard CK use f word twice in whole broadcast] / deleterious effect of polishing or de-horning on SQ / Quieter but inferior

01:39:20 SRX / Quiet vinyl

01:40:35 Led Zeppelin on Classic Records from original tapes / BG: Not much to do / "Very good recordings"

01:47:50 CK is coming out with big announcements in 2 weeks then another one after a month - "not Beatles"

01:59:10 DSD audible on a home stereo - generations can be heard [implicit that one generation is a delta]

My own minor remarks:
Michael 45 was pretty quiet - good "Chair"
RKS didn't get a lot of air time - respectful to BG
BG spoke a lot - but you wanted to listen - pure experience
CK loudmouth somewhat off-putting - over-passionate - sales guy

In this video, digital draws a short straw, and I wonder whether the tide is turning. Not so much vinyl resurgence per se, but the way that people who like to own vinyl records will think about them.

- Scraping digits off plastic mechanically is nonsense - why not just send digits (whether DSD or stepped derivatives) to a DAC.

- Some analogue tapes are in great condition. Others less so. DSD is not necessarily a bad Archive medium given all the alternatives. Archiving needs to be done now: https://www.richardhess.com/tape/history/HESS_Tape_Degradation_ARSC_Journal_39-2.pdf

- The vinyl resurgence beginning 2007 was and still is a gravy train. Some demand couldn't care less the provenance of what they buy. Some buyers extol DSD based on subjective SQ - although cognitive dissonance/expectation bias likely in play. Many vinyl record enthusiasts value AAA and began buying MFSL LPs in the late 1970s.

- MoFi's DSD vinyl records date to as early as 2007 according to some reports. As demand for alternative titles burgeoned, the likelihood of analogue tapes in good condition must have diminished rapidly.

- Why did MoFi continue to market DSD vinyl without declaring (or even dissimulating regarding) its provenance? If it sounds better (according to Jim Davis) why not promote DSD?

- Could pronouncing DSD have diluted interest in vinyl and provoked interest in digital products - where the premium for scarcity and collectability could not have been justified?

- Are vinyl enthusiasts now beginning to appreciate provenance? Such that AAA vinyl will once again be appreciated, and DSD or other digital vinyl scorned for what it is?

- In forthcoming years will there be an injection of buyer cash into the vintage vinyl market at the expense of the modern vinyl gravy train?

- We know that most vinyl records are worth little. But the spread of value of vinyl records will increase further. Vinyl records have always performed as an investment better than money in the bank - and we can expect further dividends.

- That said, any serious collector needs a plan. Not just for the foundations of their dwellings - but for the relief of their indifferent beneficiaries.

 

[Iving]

I’ll be honest, at this stage of my music listening life so to speak I can just kind of chuckle this off ... stopped buying them around 2015, so chances are I never bought one with DSD involved.

With respect you may want to check provenance of your Titles. MoFi DSD as early as 2007. 'Abraxas' 2008 widely discussed. Certainly 2015 not a DSD safety threshold.

Some info courtesy "Sex Lies and Master Tapes" on sh.tv here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ma5KjjGYsC-bvtwfsNIR4NNqGk0o2a7zEPyOCue6Nv0/edit#gid=0

MoFi web site was adding provenance to products, but this may have suspended pending potential class action lawsuits.