-I'm updating this thread to focus more on mixing music for surround/Atmos/Eclipsa/spatial audio and Compatibility/Standards:
For an artist/producer/mixer – the conundrum is – do you create an immersive mix that sounds great on speakers – or play it safe and try to make is sound best on what 99% of the listeners will listen on: stereo or headphones? If you choose headphones/stereo speakers – the mixes may not be as 'immersive' as they could be in a multi-speaker setup.
A good explanation for this would be that there's some stereo mixes I've done that I have some extra parts that sound great ... but they just doesn't work in the stereo mix at all as they take away from the song. (A similar thing could be said about cutting a film - there's oftentimes good scenes left on the cutting floor that simply don't work) There's a fine balance of what works in a stereo mix as everything is 'front and center' coming from two loudspeakers. If you take those same unused parts and have them exclusively in the rear or height speakers: it can work and makes for a great mix on multiple speaker setups ... but the second it gets automatically downmixed to headphones or stereo speakers: - it ruins the stereo mix again. That's essentially the main problem with needing to mix for both surround speakers and the downmix. It limits the ability to utilize the format to it's full potential.
Yes, you can use a great stereo mix's stems to expand to more speakers and play it safe for the mixdown, but you can't add too much more without causing phase issues or an odd stereo mix. It is a safe bet though, and many mixers do it that way and many mixes do sound good that way, but they aren't truly utilizing the format's ability - the same could be said of not using the center speaker in many immersive music mixes.
Apple Music’s default setting is for immersive/Atmos playback – so when someone chances upon a song and the immersive mix made for speakers plays on their headphones or stereo speakers and sounds terrible - listeners would be likely to simply skip the track/album. (I’ve personally done it many times – I wonder how something could be released having been mixed so poorly, when I remember that spatial audio is on. I've listened to tracks where vocals in a verse or chorus or main instruments parts simply disappear when listening to the Atmos mix on headphones. (I'm betting those mixes were mixed for speakers)
Another problem is the binaural render from Apple is different than the Atmos renderer - and who knows if the Eclipsa would have the same render. Apple/Samsung/etc could change their renderer at any time and change the mix - so the vision a mixer had from listening in Pro Tools while mixing: might differ from the apple mix that's distributed and that may even change in a week or month or 5 years down the road. Even if a mixer decides that most people listening to the music will be listening on headphones/stereo speakers/bluetooth speakers and not care about how it sounds on discreet surround speaker systems - but mix in 'Atmos' specifically for headphones and create a great mix: if the binaural render for Apple/Dolby/Eclipsa/etc are all different and change over time: that's a issue for a mixer to consider.
My suggestion would be to incorporate a way to have a separate high quality bounced stereo mix + separate immersive mix in the same file or at least have the software default to stereo if the OS is set to headphones/stereo and if it’s 4+ channels - then have that be the only time the immersive speaker mix will play. Head tracking shouldn't be needed for music mixes.
A way around this would be two separate albums: for example of this would be Peter Gabriel - i/o. The immersive mixes on speakers for the immersive version is great, but listening in stereo to those mixes are definitely different than the mixes made specifically for stereo. Obviously the downside is if someone first comes upon the surround album and listens to it on headphones - they may think it sounds not so great - when they really would need to find the separate stereo album.
I do like the fact that immersive mixes have loudness requirements – so I’d suggest requiring lower overall levels for the stereo mix too so everything isn’t brick wall limited. I also know that currently some dynamic songs have been wrecked by automatic loudness compensation – on songs similar to – ‘in the air tonight’ where there’s a big rise at a certain part of the song - eliminating the rise in the song so there’s no dynamic change. Can’t remember if it’s that bad on apple music or if it’s YouTube where it automatically changes the uploads and wrecks what the artist intended. I've had a song wrecked that way.
Not sure how many people have mixed music here or surround - but I put it in the Pro Audio Forum. If anyone has random surround mixing tips/tricks that wouldn't be bad to share here or any updates on Eclipsa Audio pertaining to music mixing.
For an artist/producer/mixer – the conundrum is – do you create an immersive mix that sounds great on speakers – or play it safe and try to make is sound best on what 99% of the listeners will listen on: stereo or headphones? If you choose headphones/stereo speakers – the mixes may not be as 'immersive' as they could be in a multi-speaker setup.
A good explanation for this would be that there's some stereo mixes I've done that I have some extra parts that sound great ... but they just doesn't work in the stereo mix at all as they take away from the song. (A similar thing could be said about cutting a film - there's oftentimes good scenes left on the cutting floor that simply don't work) There's a fine balance of what works in a stereo mix as everything is 'front and center' coming from two loudspeakers. If you take those same unused parts and have them exclusively in the rear or height speakers: it can work and makes for a great mix on multiple speaker setups ... but the second it gets automatically downmixed to headphones or stereo speakers: - it ruins the stereo mix again. That's essentially the main problem with needing to mix for both surround speakers and the downmix. It limits the ability to utilize the format to it's full potential.
Yes, you can use a great stereo mix's stems to expand to more speakers and play it safe for the mixdown, but you can't add too much more without causing phase issues or an odd stereo mix. It is a safe bet though, and many mixers do it that way and many mixes do sound good that way, but they aren't truly utilizing the format's ability - the same could be said of not using the center speaker in many immersive music mixes.
Apple Music’s default setting is for immersive/Atmos playback – so when someone chances upon a song and the immersive mix made for speakers plays on their headphones or stereo speakers and sounds terrible - listeners would be likely to simply skip the track/album. (I’ve personally done it many times – I wonder how something could be released having been mixed so poorly, when I remember that spatial audio is on. I've listened to tracks where vocals in a verse or chorus or main instruments parts simply disappear when listening to the Atmos mix on headphones. (I'm betting those mixes were mixed for speakers)
Another problem is the binaural render from Apple is different than the Atmos renderer - and who knows if the Eclipsa would have the same render. Apple/Samsung/etc could change their renderer at any time and change the mix - so the vision a mixer had from listening in Pro Tools while mixing: might differ from the apple mix that's distributed and that may even change in a week or month or 5 years down the road. Even if a mixer decides that most people listening to the music will be listening on headphones/stereo speakers/bluetooth speakers and not care about how it sounds on discreet surround speaker systems - but mix in 'Atmos' specifically for headphones and create a great mix: if the binaural render for Apple/Dolby/Eclipsa/etc are all different and change over time: that's a issue for a mixer to consider.
My suggestion would be to incorporate a way to have a separate high quality bounced stereo mix + separate immersive mix in the same file or at least have the software default to stereo if the OS is set to headphones/stereo and if it’s 4+ channels - then have that be the only time the immersive speaker mix will play. Head tracking shouldn't be needed for music mixes.
A way around this would be two separate albums: for example of this would be Peter Gabriel - i/o. The immersive mixes on speakers for the immersive version is great, but listening in stereo to those mixes are definitely different than the mixes made specifically for stereo. Obviously the downside is if someone first comes upon the surround album and listens to it on headphones - they may think it sounds not so great - when they really would need to find the separate stereo album.
I do like the fact that immersive mixes have loudness requirements – so I’d suggest requiring lower overall levels for the stereo mix too so everything isn’t brick wall limited. I also know that currently some dynamic songs have been wrecked by automatic loudness compensation – on songs similar to – ‘in the air tonight’ where there’s a big rise at a certain part of the song - eliminating the rise in the song so there’s no dynamic change. Can’t remember if it’s that bad on apple music or if it’s YouTube where it automatically changes the uploads and wrecks what the artist intended. I've had a song wrecked that way.
Not sure how many people have mixed music here or surround - but I put it in the Pro Audio Forum. If anyone has random surround mixing tips/tricks that wouldn't be bad to share here or any updates on Eclipsa Audio pertaining to music mixing.
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