Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Cbdb2]

i think he has been rumbled and de-commisioned by our efficient mods.

Since his words are still around, just wanted to debunk them for others.

 

[fpitas]

Since his words are still around, just wanted to debunk them for others.

Good plan

 

[elvisizer]

I’m listening at things in the music and not the music itself

things in music ARE the music itself. listening to details doesn't mean you're not listening to music.

 

[antcollinet]

things in music ARE the music itself. listening to details doesn't mean you're not listening to music.

I dunno. If youre examining the bark of a tree, can you see the forest?

 

[Emlin]

I dunno. If youre examining the bark of a tree, can you see the forest?

No, but from the acoustics you'll be able to tell that it's there.

 

[j_j]

In that case, reinstall the original wire while making sure of a good connection and listen again. Better yet, have a disinterested 3rd party switch wires in a random manner - and compare notes after at least 10 iterations and see how good you are at telling the difference.

Remove and reinstall the original wires for "reference" before you do any kind of test. Corrosion can (not always, but sometimes) do very interesting things that cause the "new" cables to sound better, even if they are the "old" cables.

 

[egellings]

I dunno. If youre examining the bark of a tree, can you see the forest?

Or even the whole tree?

 

[cgardnerma]

Thank you for the reply Bob. I don’t really care that much Bob. I’ve learned that when changing tubes or various components, my ears get used to what I’m hearing in short time. As long as things are good, I don’t really care. The nuances don’t interest me really. I want to enjoy the music and not pick it apart. I found that with more accurate or analytical gear, Topping and/ss amp, I’m listening at things in the music and not the music itself. It’s a me problem. It’s why I’ve gravitated to tubes. I suppose I like music with distortion and/or ambience over super accurate. I’m sure that has filtered over to my connections as well. I’m not one to spend thousands on interconnects anyway.

Tubes sound good because they distort in second order harmonics (in octaves above the fundamental) and they do it in a gradual/musical way that builds naturally with power (compression). It's not a problem. It sounds really good. I like it too for some music...esp vinyl...at reasonable volumes. There's plenty of science to support why it sounds good to a lot of people.

On the other hand, I like my home theatre LOUD and clean. Solid state, good specs, all channels driven.

 

[Galliardist]

Tubes sound good because they distort in second order harmonics (in octaves above the fundamental) and they do it in a gradual/musical way that builds naturally with power (compression). It's not a problem. It sounds really good. I like it too for some music...esp vinyl...at reasonable volumes. There's plenty of science to support why it sounds good to a lot of people.

On the other hand, I like my home theatre LOUD and clean. Solid state, good specs, all channels driven.

I’ve heard that… trap. The thing is, if you actually know the playing of the musician and instrument concerned, it takes very little of that “niceness” to sound horribly wrong with a simple recording of unamplified guitar or violin, At least, that is my subjective experience.

Tbe best controlled listening tests we have suggest that other science trumps your science. A few good references supporting your viewpoint wouldn’t go amiss here.

Not all tube amps have this effect, anyway. Some are sufficiently neutral. Others have different distortion patterns.

 

[cgardnerma]

I’ve heard that… trap. The thing is, if you actually know the playing of the musician and instrument concerned, it takes very little of that “niceness” to sound horribly wrong with a simple recording of unamplified guitar or violin, At least, that is my subjective experience.

Tbe best controlled listening tests we have suggest that other science trumps your science. A few good references supporting your viewpoint wouldn’t go amiss here.

Not all tube amps have this effect, anyway. Some are sufficiently neutral. Others have different distortion patterns.

I was not implying that tubes sound better to everyone. I agree that, of course, not all tube amps behave the same way (measurements don't lie). I also accept that tubes can sound horribly wrong (subjective) to some people...including me. Especially in the context of naked acoustic instruments. And personally, I would rather listen to a clean solid state amp than tubes in most circumstances (subjective).

I have no axe to grind. I am simply pointing out the "why" that tubes sound good in some contexts. You can do your own Googling to understand the difference between even and odd order harmonics and why harmonic distortion in music can be quite pleasing from a psychoacoustic perspective. There's no "trap" there. Just understanding and context.

I am not a zealot. My speaker wire is chopped up extension cords. I am here because I believe in the science and measurement of audio as well audio's effect on the listener. And, I enjoy a good debate and the debunking of ridiculous claims by manufacturers doing a cashectomy on unsuspecting "audiophiles".

 

[Galliardist]

I was not implying that tubes sound better to everyone. I agree that, of course, not all tube amps behave the same way (measurements don't lie). I also accept that tubes can sound horribly wrong (subjective) to some people...including me. Especially in the context of naked acoustic instruments. And personally, I would rather listen to a clean solid state amp than tubes in most circumstances (subjective).

I have no axe to grind. I am simply pointing out the "why" that tubes sound good in some contexts. You can do your own Googling to understand the difference between even and odd order harmonics and why harmonic distortion in music can be quite pleasing from a psychoacoustic perspective. There's no "trap" there. Just understanding and context.

I am not a zealot. My speaker wire is chopped up extension cords. I am here because I believe in the science and measurement of audio as well audio's effect on the listener. And, I enjoy a good debate and the debunking of ridiculous claims by manufacturers doing a cashectomy on unsuspecting "audiophiles".

It's OK, you didn't sound like a Zealot and you did qualify what you were saying. I do understand the claims around different harmonics and claims for enhancement of the sound, and indeed I've heard things sound, as you say, "nicer". But does "nicer" cut it? The key point here is that the sounds of musical instruments themselves are partly, and usually largely, determined by their harmonic output, so adding further harmonics must by definition reduce fidelity. This relates also to the comment you replied to.

Thank you for the reply Bob. I don’t really care that much Bob. I’ve learned that when changing tubes or various components, my ears get used to what I’m hearing in short time. As long as things are good, I don’t really care. The nuances don’t interest me really. I want to enjoy the music and not pick it apart. I found that with more accurate or analytical gear, Topping and/ss amp, I’m listening at things in the music and not the music itself. It’s a me problem. It’s why I’ve gravitated to tubes. I suppose I like music with distortion and/or ambience over super accurate. I’m sure that has filtered over to my connections as well. I’m not one to spend thousands on interconnects anyway.

(Emphasis mine). The music is in the details, though! One of the good things about recorded music is that you can play something lots of times, and that helps to understand it and what goes into a good piece of music.

Sure, you may find that you "listen at things in the music", but that is not a bad thing, if you take advantage of it to understand how that piece of music works as a whole.

If you practice, you can learn to "zoom" in and out of details in a piece you know fairly well: and once you absorb how music is put together, it just becomes even more interesting. It sure beats just "listening to the equipment", which is what I read into your comment, I'm afraid.

 

[Earthbound]

It's OK, you didn't sound like a Zealot and you did qualify what you were saying. I do understand the claims around different harmonics and claims for enhancement of the sound, and indeed I've heard things sound, as you say, "nicer". But does "nicer" cut it? The key point here is that the sounds of musical instruments themselves are partly, and usually largely, determined by their harmonic output, so adding further harmonics must by definition reduce fidelity. This relates also to the comment you replied to.

(Emphasis mine). The music is in the details, though! One of the good things about recorded music is that you can play something lots of times, and that helps to understand it and what goes into a good piece of music.

Sure, you may find that you "listen at things in the music", but that is not a bad thing, if you take advantage of it to understand how that piece of music works as a whole.

If you practice, you can learn to "zoom" in and out of details in a piece you know fairly well: and once you absorb how music is put together, it just becomes even more interesting. It sure beats just "listening to the equipment", which is what I read into your comment, I'm afraid.

It was a wonderful discovery with my new system. Hearing breathing or instrument shuffling in the background is wild. You hit the nail on the head with learning to zoom out. I’m getting better at it. Usually comes when I’m not paying attention and then I notice my feet are moving to the rhythm.

 

[elvisizer]

I dunno. If youre examining the bark of a tree, can you see the forest?

sure, why not? life just isn't this hard lololololololol

 

[cgardnerma]

It's OK, you didn't sound like a Zealot and you did qualify what you were saying. I do understand the claims around different harmonics and claims for enhancement of the sound, and indeed I've heard things sound, as you say, "nicer". But does "nicer" cut it? The key point here is that the sounds of musical instruments themselves are partly, and usually largely, determined by their harmonic output, so adding further harmonics must by definition reduce fidelity. This relates also to the comment you replied to.

(Emphasis mine). The music is in the details, though! One of the good things about recorded music is that you can play something lots of times, and that helps to understand it and what goes into a good piece of music.

Sure, you may find that you "listen at things in the music", but that is not a bad thing, if you take advantage of it to understand how that piece of music works as a whole.

If you practice, you can learn to "zoom" in and out of details in a piece you know fairly well: and once you absorb how music is put together, it just becomes even more interesting. It sure beats just "listening to the equipment", which is what I read into your comment, I'm afraid.

Interesting take on listening to the equipment instead of the music. As a person that has a recording studio, for me, the equipment is explicitly part of the music creation process. There is no electric guitar absent the equipment (often tubes). Different microphones can dramatically effect the sound of the human voice or an acoustic instrument. But, in classical and other acoustic music recording realms, transparency and accuracy is paramount. You generally don't want the mics or the preamps to sound like anything! In my world (mostly rock), we're often looking for character in our equipment. Something that makes the recording sound unique or more exciting.

I think your point is about wanting the playback of the music to reflect the recording as accurately as possible. I get it, and that's where I land as well. On the other hand, I know first hand how a gooey, warm, slightly sizzly (distortion) tube microphone can utterly transform a vocal recording with some singers. The recording process is about listening to the equipment and the instrument!

The same effect can occur on playback and many people love what the non-linearity of tubes adds to playback...even if it isn't an accurate reflection of the recording itself. Not for me generally, but I understand why that is the case.

FWIW, my studio playback system is room corrected Neumanns. Clean and accurate as I can get it.

 

[Skeeter]

If people believe there is a man in the sky they have to obey in order to avoid hell . . . I suppose they’ll believe a 10W AudioNote amp featuring 2% distortion ‘sounds magical’.

Do a search on recent Stereophile reviews

 

[Earthbound]

If people believe there is a man in the sky they have to obey in order to avoid hell . . . I suppose they’ll believe a 10W AudioNote amp featuring 2% distortion ‘sounds magical’.

Do a search on recent Stereophile reviews

Let me guess, you painted inside the lines of your coloring book. Lol

 

[Skeeter]

I don’t really have a problem with ‘gentlemen’s club’ amps like the AudioNote. Personally I would never spend the $6k asking price on one, but who am I to judge. If someone gains pleasure from it, good for them. I guess it’s like a good bourbon vs a 15 yr old single malt. The problem I have is when these same people write articles about feedback and low distortion and why it’s bad and it’s clear they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. This is not even subjectivity at that point. It’s pure religion and that has no place in an engineering or scientific realm.

 

[j_j]

I don’t really have a problem with ‘gentlemen’s club’ amps like the AudioNote. Personally I would never spend the $6k asking price on one, but who am I to judge. If someone gains pleasure from it, good for them. I guess it’s like a good bourbon vs a 15 yr old single malt. The problem I have is when these same people write articles about feedback and low distortion and why it’s bad and it’s clear they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. This is not even subjectivity at that point. It’s pure religion and that has no place in an engineering or scientific realm.

Preference is preference. Everybody is entitled to one. When, however, people choose to invent fantastical, bizarre, or technically ludicrous reasoning for their preference, I must say I find that profoundly annoying. The inadvertent self-influence problem is very difficult to avoid, in fact, nobody has been known to be able to avoid it.

 

[SIY]

Preference is preference. Everybody is entitled to one. When, however, people choose to invent fantastical, bizarre, or technically ludicrous reasoning for their preference, I must say I find that profoundly annoying. The inadvertent self-influence problem is very difficult to avoid, in fact, nobody has been known to be able to avoid it.

Ditto, but I'd also add attributing preference to sonics ("I know it's not purist, but I like a little tube distortion") without testing to see if any differences can actually be heard.

I still chuckle every time I see someone refer to tube sound as "warm and mellow," remembering that when solid state came along, audio journalists like Gordon Holt described "tube sound" as "bright, forward, and alive." Get your stories straight, people.

 

[MattHooper]

Preference is preference. Everybody is entitled to one. When, however, people choose to invent fantastical, bizarre, or technically ludicrous reasoning for their preference, I must say I find that profoundly annoying. The inadvertent self-influence problem is very difficult to avoid, in fact, nobody has been known to be able to avoid it.

The thing that gets me about tube amps in the audiophile world:

Audiophiles are always talking about "getting closer to the music" and stripping down distortions. So most tube amp manufacturers don't want to advertise "Try our amps, they will add some euphonic distortion." It often has to be presented more as "taking away" something that solid state purportedly doesn't do as well...single ended tube amps purporting to reduce crossover distortion or whatever. I do think that some tube amp manufacturers are quite sincere also in believing they've chosen a certain tube amp design that in principle offers some sort of advantage over solid state.

But the main issue for me is that when you read any of the marketing hype, or if you just read the opening of a typical tube amp review, for instance in Stereophile, you get this whole story about the technical design and how it is meant to reduce X distortion and produce other technical goals, but then in the stereophile measurements there is typically no indication that any such technical goal was reached. It's usually just...flavours of measurable distortion higher than the usual solid state amp.