Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[watchnerd]

It did suck much of the joy out of the hobby at first.

I had the opposite reaction.

It frees me to just buy whatever I think looks cool and has features I like.

SINAD of 115 vs 95? I don't care...I won't hear it.

 

[Killingbeans]

Given the similar architectures, I'm a bit surprised.

Do they have the same handling of the RIAA curve?

 

[watchnerd]

Music has to be live , the best thing about live music is anything can happen , in the toilet or behind the bins ..

The music is the mixer of communication and ultimately connection.

Anyone who doesn't understand that is lost and has no hope .

One could argue listening to music at home, in the stereo vice is anti music and selling ones self short and missing the whole point.

One could argue ..

As someone who plays and enjoys listening to recorded jazz and fusion, you hit on one of the things I hate about jazz recordings:

They're the same every time.

Which blows the whole point of a music form based on improv....

 

[watchnerd]

Do they have the same handling of the RIAA curve?

I should look a little closer, but given the RIAA is done in DSP for both, I'd be surprised if it was different.

 

[watchnerd]

Do they have the same handling of the RIAA curve?

Not exactly apples to apples test rigs but....

Devialet RIAA conformance per Stereophile:

Puffin per Amir:

So on (at least some) music, I can tell these apart pretty reliably.

But non-broken DACs don't measure the same or as differently from one another.

 

[BDWoody]

It frees me to just buy whatever I think looks cool and has features I like.

Exactly...

There's a lot of very cool stuff that isn't going to top any charts.

Won't matter to me... Especially if I'm listening to records.

I came here looking for the best numbers, ended up buying more vintage gear once I figured out what those tiny numbers mean.

On the Devialet/Puffin...
Did you try ABing between the original record itself and the copy, or just between the two different copies?

 

[Robin L]

I had the opposite reaction.

It frees me to just buy whatever I think looks cool and has features I like.

SINAD of 115 vs 95? I don't care...I won't hear it.

What I'm looking for is the cheapest way to get the highest fidelity.

Which somehow brings Dolly Parton to mind.

 

[watchnerd]

On the Devialet/Puffin...
Did you try ABing between the original record itself and the copy, or just between the two different copies?

I don't have a way to do a double-blind test with the physical record and the digital copies. I'd have to have an assistant and a screen, otherwise I'd know what was being cued up.

I can only ABX test between digital rips.

But if others want to try, the rips are posted here.

 

[watchnerd]

I think the real gold is in knowing how to listen and what to listen for. More about the brains than the ears. Particularly as regards engineering/mixing.

I think you're right.

I also think there is room for skilled listeners to hear things that might be hard for others to hear....but you have to be able to prove it under blind conditions.

If a listener can reliably hear a difference in an ABX test, that is empirical evidence.

Even if we're not sure, at first, what measurements map to what is being heard.

 

[Phorize]

Of course you are wrong. But it does not matter. I am satisfied that you concede digital needs to improve and is. I'll take whatever concession I can get.

I think you may genuinely be confusing the a legalistic mode of enquiry for a scientific based one. As Dr David Deutsch would say, a good explanation starts with a conjecture but ends with an explanation that is hard to vary. A legalistic argument (or at least a western one in practice rather than in academia) presents in an adversarial fashion, often with suppression of bad facts. As you say though, the discussion has stopped being fruitful. It may not be a case of res judicata as much as res ipsa loquitar. As an aside I have a state of the art dac and a 1960s idler drive turntable and I enjoy them equally for different reasons

 

[Robin L]

We can see alignment can combat IGD. While IGD it is not impossible to combat.

I realize this ship has sailed. But I need to point out that NOTHING in this video addresses the central, unfixable problem with LPs.

1: "Align your cartridge"---of course I did that. "It is possible that the cartridge is aligned at the start of the record but not at the end." Of course, but it's only correctly aligned at two points on a record if you're using a pivoted arm. It will not be perfectly aligned anywhere else. "Most distortion issues will be caused by bad alignment". Incorrect. Most distortion is baked into the grooves due to the reduction of velocity as the stylus moves towards the deadwax. A [very significant] amount of distortion is caused by the cartridge itself, including very high priced cartridges. Check out the distortion measurements for cartridges at HI-FI News. Don't expect to ever see them at Analog Planet.

2: "Change alignment methods": Moving from Baerwald to Stevenson only changes where the distortion is happening due to alignment issues, but it does not, cannot, remove that distortion. It simply moves that distortion to another part of the record.

3: "Cartridge tracking": There's going to be a setting with cartridge tracking that will have the least distortion. But that setting does not remove the distortion. Heavier tracking usually works out better sonically, but too much or too little tracking force increases record wear. In any case, this does not address the central issue of the groove getting harder to track towards the center of the disc.

4: "You have a crappy record". DUH! Whole lot of that going on, even now. Used records that were played on typical equipment in a typical way? Fuggedaboudit.

The first two issues are addressed with a linear tracking arm on a turntable. I've owned one of those. All a linear tracking arm can do is replay that baked in distortion with higher fidelity. The inherent IGD is still there. All attempts to eliminate IGD are doomed to failure. Reduce the elements of IGD due to operator error? Sure. But what's baked into the groove will still be there. A mastering engineer has to figure out some way to work around these issues, but a mastering engineering cannot fix these issues. In attempting to deal with these issues, they often remove deep bass, sum bass to mono, limit treble and compress everything to make the music fit into the groove. Alternatively, new "audiophie" issues will reissue a single disc album as a two disc album. So the problem is significantly reduced, but it's still not eliminated. And I guess that's cool if you like flipping vinyl discs. Me? Not so much. But that's just me.

Sorry if I'm ranting, but I've done everything in this video decades ago.

 

[watchnerd]

Sorry if I'm ranting, but I've done everything in this video decades ago.

It's Sunday.

Less coffee, more mimosas.

 

[Robin L]

It's Sunday.

Less coffee, more mimosas.

I'm not a mimosa kinda guy, but I intend to adjust my mood with the plentiful mood stabilizers I've got on hand. Right now.

 

[MattHooper]

Exactly...

There's a lot of very cool stuff that isn't going to top any charts.

Won't matter to me... Especially if I'm listening to records.

I came here looking for the best numbers, ended up buying more vintage gear once I figured out what those tiny numbers mean.

Interesting. I feel similarly.

Reading about the relevance of the measurements here re-enforces that I'm not going to worry about things I'm unlikely to even hear. I have no interest in chasing distortion below points I'll never hear. In areas where I care about neutrality, tons of different ss amps or DACs will do the job adequately. In areas where I enjoy a bit of coloration I can do that, and gain an idea of what is plausibly audible.

 

[David Harper]

Your first experience which proves to you that you've stopped being an audiophool is when you stop thinking that a more expensive amp or CDP will
"sound better" than the one you've got.
Your second is when you stop reading audiophile forums.

 

[Killingbeans]

 

[watchnerd]

I really don't have any upside or personal benefit for unraveling someone else's cognitive dissonance when it comes to their audio hobby.

 

[Killingbeans]

I really don't have any upside or personal benefit for unraveling someone else's cognitive dissonance when it comes to their audio hobby.

I'm not saying you should. I didn't post it to give ammunition to any kind of war.

I've just noticed that there's a lot of dumb gridlocks happening in forum discussions (everywhere.. not just on ASR), and I think that understanding what cognitive dissonance is and what it does to people can help unravel those in a graceful way. Like he says in the video; It's not about winning or losing, just communication.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

Agree, many dumb gridlocks on forums everywhere. I think Internet bravado is a large contributor. Without face-to-face communication basic respect and courtesy disappear and quickly devolve into "right vs. wrong" debates. Audio should be a hobby to be enjoyed as each individual sees fit. Different approaches are not going to be resolved as right or wrong on this forum or any other.

Personally have always sought out every shred of information, objective and subjective, to aid a purchase decision. Both types of information narrow the field. In the end, that information and other factors converge to a purchase. Works for me. Is it "right" for everyone, NO. Is it "wrong" for anyone, NO.

My time is better spent on things that do not include keyboard debates. Sharing information and experience without a judgmental approach would be good for all.

 

[watchnerd]

My time is better spent on things that do not include keyboard debates.

+1

Lots of things on my bucket list before I shuffle off this mortal coil that are more worthy of time investments.