McIntosh Transformer causing noise in speakers while disconnected.

[ClassG33]

**UPDATE kind of, if you're bored and feeling helpful. PICS below**
I have my new amp. Going to spend the night redoing the setup from scratch, and then I'll post results. I'll be honest: I am expecting the same results of noise transmission, but staying hopeful. Either way, the cosmetic flaws were enough case to exchange it. If anyone has a moment, I am seeking opinions/tips/advice on two points, as I set this up:

1) TLDR; Given the fact that there is always unavoidable, general noise within my speakers (even though it is significantly reduced by Panamax, Furman, AQ power/analog/speaker cables, and great cable management), how big of a factor is a noisy circuit breaker panel? Should panels be silent, or is it acceptable to hear something? Is possible and/or worth having my electrician do something to make the power "cleaner"? What kind of work is required to improve on it, and what should I expect to pay?

I have made an observation regarding my speaker noise while identifying outlets/breakers. I have two outlet choices, and they are on different circuits, so i was going to try using a different one and see if it reduces general noise. When I was flipping the switches to identify the corresponding outlets, that's when I heard..... IT. That same gross distorted noise I shared heard in the videos was happening in my breaker!!! I am uneducated with electrical, so I started tapping switches to see if it was switch-specific, or if it's just a garbage noisy breaker overall. One switch was a little wiggly and I pushed it farther into the ON position. The noise within the panel did not go away, but it was cut down maybe by 80-90% (again, the noise within the breaker panel). It was a switch that controlled power from a room on another level of the home, so idk what that may mean. Or if it could be a possible culprit of speaker noise. Could this be the exact noise my amp was picking up and wirelessly transmitting to the speakers?

2) Below are 2 pictures of the setup I'm about to start right now. I am conflicted, and seeking advice on placement of gear. I want the Mac amp visible and forward so I can be a nerd and bask in the watt meters, but it has to be on a shelf on either side, and not the cabinet. Keeping in mind: 1) Convenience of placement so analog and power cables stay separated, and not running parallel to each other. How close to they actually need to be in order to have interference? 2) I have mesh wraps and ties, lifters etc. all the cable management gear I need. 3) Breaker panel is on the left, with outlet 1 beneath it - does that matter? 4) Outlet 2 is behind couch, about a foot from end of couch. 5) I have two Salamander Archetype frames though only one is pictured and I 10 total shelves, more than I need for any possible configuration. 6)I have a Panamax with High Current, and a Furman Elite 15 for power. Love you guys!
Gear:
MC255 AMP (powering LCR)
CINEMA 50 AVR/PRE (powering pair of rear surround channels only)
PS5
SONY 800 BLURAY PLAYER
ROKU ULTRA
PANAMAX MAX5300PM
FURMAN ELITE 15 PFi

 

[Doodski]

@ClassG33. I am watching this new comment very closely and am very interested as well. Not something I have ever dealt with though.

Are you using a Furman conditioner with the system?

 

[ClassG33]

@ClassG33. I am watching this new comment very closely and am very interested as well. Not something I have ever dealt with though.

Are you using a Furman conditioner with the system?

Yes. Gear list is at end of the post before the pictures. I'm gonna start with AMP Power Cable in wall with stock cord to please the manual Gods, but it will probably end up be fed by the Furman, with Blizzard Cable.

 

[Doodski]

Yes. Gear list is at end of the post before the pictures. I'm gonna start with AMP Power Cable in wall with stock cord to please the manual Gods, but it will probably end up be fed by the Furman, with Blizzard Cable.

Ahhh right... Thanks for showing me the obvious that I missed when skimming and scanning.

Conditioner Power HT 15A Power Factor | Furman Power

Linear filtering AC power source with Power Factor technology.

furmanpower.com

Are you aware that all the power supplies in all of your AV gear are capable of smoothing out any deviation or distortion in the AC mains waveform?
No filtering/power conditioning should be required and generally for home use it is considered as snake oil by ASR.
The idea of a dedicated power conditioner comes from the instrumentation in metrology operations where repeatable accuracy down to parts per million or more accuracy is required for the purpose of calibrating very high accuracy metering gear and standards of measurement.

EDIT: A proper power conditioner is pallet sized, weighs hundreds of pound/kgs and costs large too.

 

[Golf]

I would think that your room is just »electrically messy«

Quite a while ago, my suggestion was:

Guess I would do one final test: Moving the two suspects, amp and center speaker, to a different location. Another room, maybe even another house.

 

[ClassG33]

I would think that your room is just »electrically messy«

Quite a while ago, my suggestion was:

I remember this, just thought of trying a different outlet yesterday and started investigating the breaker. Idk how I can measure it is messy though.

 

[ClassG33]

Ahhh right... Thanks for showing me the obvious that I missed when skimming and scanning.

Conditioner Power HT 15A Power Factor | Furman Power

Linear filtering AC power source with Power Factor technology.

furmanpower.com

Are you aware that all the power supplies in all of your AV gear are capable of smoothing out any deviation or distortion in the AC mains waveform?
No filtering/power conditioning should be required and generally for home use it is considered as snake oil by ASR.
The idea of a dedicated power conditioner comes from the instrumentation in metrology operations where repeatable accuracy down to parts per million or more accuracy is required for the purpose of calibrating very high accuracy metering gear and standards of measurement.

EDIT: A proper power conditioner is pallet sized, weighs hundreds of pound/kgs and costs large too.

I have moved past that topic long ago lol, I have to go with my ears on this one I am 10000% convinced otherwise, even more so with power cables. Not only can I notice it in blind tests, but my wife who cares zero about any of this asked why it sounded so much better one night after I changed power cables, and she didn't even know I changed them or that it was a thing ppl do. Respect to ppl who believes otherwise, but I have found after 20 years in audio that sometimes things sound a certain way and we don't know why lolol

 

[Doodski]

I have moved past that topic long ago lol, I have to go with my ears on this one I am 10000% convinced otherwise, even more so with power cables. Not only can I notice it in blind tests, but my wife who cares zero about any of this asked why it sounded so much better one night after I changed power cables, and she didn't even know I changed them or that it was a thing ppl do. Respect to ppl who believes otherwise, but I have found after 20 years in audio that sometimes things sound a certain way and we don't know why lolol

Alrighty... I never argue with a customer that is firm and entrenched.
Keep in mind for later though if your amp seems to be limited the power conditioner represents a voltage divider element in the AC mains power path and maximum power transfer is being interfered with by creating a voltage drop across the power conditioner. That will affect the max power output of the McIntosh amplifier.
As <Watts RMS = (Vpeak * 0.707) ^2 / R load> and Vpeak is the McIntosh power supply (+) and (-) rails the power is considerably reduced.

 

[ClassG33]

Alrighty... I never argue with a customer that is firm and entrenched.
Keep in mind for later though if your amp seems to be limited the power conditioner represents a voltage divider element in the AC mains power path and maximum power transfer is being interfered with by creating a voltage drop across the power conditioner. That will affect the max power output of the McIntosh amplifier.
As <Watts RMS = (Vpeak * 0.707) ^2 / R load> and Vpeak is the McIntosh power supply (+) and (-) rails the power is considerably reduced.

For me it is for protection, not as much sound, but still sound. It will be a rare occasion I ever use even 200 watts lol but I'm excited to see how high i can push the watt meters with that equation in mind!

 

[Doodski]

For me it is for protection, not as much sound, but still sound. It will be a rare occasion I ever use even 200 watts lol but I'm excited to see how high i can push the watt meters with that equation in mind!

Those McIntosh meters are to die for... LoL.

 

[peng]

**UPDATE kind of, if you're bored and feeling helpful. PICS below**
I have my new amp. Going to spend the night redoing the setup from scratch, and then I'll post results. I'll be honest: I am expecting the same results of noise transmission, but staying hopeful. Either way, the cosmetic flaws were enough case to exchange it. If anyone has a moment, I am seeking opinions/tips/advice on two points, as I set this up:

1) TLDR; Given the fact that there is always unavoidable, general noise within my speakers (even though it is significantly reduced by Panamax, Furman, AQ power/analog/speaker cables, and great cable management), how big of a factor is a noisy circuit breaker panel? Should panels be silent, or is it acceptable to hear something? Is possible and/or worth having my electrician do something to make the power "cleaner"? What kind of work is required to improve on it, and what should I expect to pay?

I have made an observation regarding my speaker noise while identifying outlets/breakers. I have two outlet choices, and they are on different circuits, so i was going to try using a different one and see if it reduces general noise. When I was flipping the switches to identify the corresponding outlets, that's when I heard..... IT. That same gross distorted noise I shared heard in the videos was happening in my breaker!!! I am uneducated with electrical, so I started tapping switches to see if it was switch-specific, or if it's just a garbage noisy breaker overall. One switch was a little wiggly and I pushed it farther into the ON position. The noise within the panel did not go away, but it was cut down maybe by 80-90% (again, the noise within the breaker panel). It was a switch that controlled power from a room on another level of the home, so idk what that may mean. Or if it could be a possible culprit of speaker noise. Could this be the exact noise my amp was picking up and wirelessly transmitting to the speakers?

2) Below are 2 pictures of the setup I'm about to start right now. I am conflicted, and seeking advice on placement of gear. I want the Mac amp visible and forward so I can be a nerd and bask in the watt meters, but it has to be on a shelf on either side, and not the cabinet. Keeping in mind: 1) Convenience of placement so analog and power cables stay separated, and not running parallel to each other. How close to they actually need to be in order to have interference? 2) I have mesh wraps and ties, lifters etc. all the cable management gear I need. 3) Breaker panel is on the left, with outlet 1 beneath it - does that matter? 4) Outlet 2 is behind couch, about a foot from end of couch. 5) I have two Salamander Archetype frames though only one is pictured and I 10 total shelves, more than I need for any possible configuration. 6)I have a Panamax with High Current, and a Furman Elite 15 for power. Love you guys!
Gear:
MC255 AMP (powering LCR)
CINEMA 50 AVR/PRE (powering pair of rear surround channels only)
PS5
SONY 800 BLURAY PLAYER
ROKU ULTRA
PANAMAX MAX5300PM
FURMAN ELITE 15 PFi

View attachment 361252
View attachment 361254

Can you post a photo of the breaker panel with the cover opened (of course only if you can do it safely)? In my experience, breakers don't, or at least shouldn't make noise except the special ones such as the GFCI and AFCI (I had one AFCI that buzzed) in some rare cases. Regardless, I will bet that your new amp won't cause your speakers to act like an antenna and buzz without anything connected to them.

Your breaker panel being right there, it is better to not use those conditioners but install one of those whole house surge suppression ones that are easy to install. Those things should be far more protective against surge, even lightning induced ones, than the likes of Panamax and Furman's that spent lots of efforts in trying to "clean" the incoming supply quality that's not necessary to improve "sound quality".

I am just mentioning it but fully realize since you seem firmly believe in their marketing info so you are going to keep using it and that's great since it makes you happy, but to protect your lovely Mc amp, I would still suggest you install the whole house device in your panel for added protection.

 

[ClassG33]

Can you post a photo of the breaker panel with the cover opened (of course only if you can do it safely)? In my experience, breakers don't, or at least shouldn't make noise except the special ones such as the GFCI and AFCI (I had one AFCI that buzzed) in some rare cases. Regardless, I will bet that your new amp won't cause your speakers to act like an antenna and buzz without anything connected to them.

Your breaker panel being right there, it is better to not use those conditioners but install one of those whole house surge suppression ones that are easy to install. Those things should be far more protective against surge, even lightning induced ones, than the likes of Panamax and Furman's that spent lots of efforts in trying to "clean" the incoming supply quality that's not necessary to improve "sound quality".

I am just mentioning it but fully realize since you seem firmly believe in their marketing info so you are going to keep using it and that's great since it makes you happy, but to protect your lovely Mc amp, I would still suggest you install the whole house device in your panel for added protection.

I love the comment! And points for diplomacy Picture below. And wow the picture makes it look way more gross than I ever noticed. I misspoke earlier on all that, I am uncertain if I've ever noticed a quality difference due to a surge protector, jury is still out so if I haven't noticed by now, then it's a non factor for me. I just want great protection on my investment, so I love your idea thank you! I'm 100% gonna get this.

My hot take I was talking about (ready the tomatoes): I stand firm on power cables though. I understand and enough people have showed me data that it doesn't scientifically make sense for us to notice anything, but I do in some cases. I can only speak for audioquest though, I have really never tried another brand.

 

[Doodski]

I stand firm on power cables though. I understand and enough people have showed me data that it doesn't scientifically make sense for us to notice anything, but I do in some cases. I can only speak for audioquest though, I have really never tried another brand.

Major faux pas there... sigh* I can explain and have the time if you can make the time...

 

[mhardy6647]

The idea of a dedicated power conditioner comes from the instrumentation in metrology operations where repeatable accuracy down to parts per million or more accuracy

Somehow (and with no malice towards @Doodski intended!) I feel the need to mention that 1 ppm = 0.0001%
nigh-on DAC territory in 2024, you know? IOW, I am not sure that using ppm as a reference point for not worth worrying about quite rings true!
I am being mostly facetious, but not entirely. You know -- live by the spec, die by the spec.

In all seriousness @ClassG33 thanks for keeping us in the loop. Beware of audiophilia nervosa, though.
That said -- circuit breakers are cheap.
Electricians are not -- but one could certainly get a check-up on the circuit(s) in question.

 

[Doodski]

Somehow (and with no malice towards @Doodski intended!) I feel the need to mention that 1 ppm = 0.0001%
nigh-on DAC territory in 2024, you know? IOW, I am not sure that using ppm as a reference point for not worth worrying about quite rings true!
I am being mostly facetious, but not entirely. You know -- live by the spec, die by the spec.

In all seriousness @ClassG33 thanks for keeping us in the loop. Beware of audiophilia nervosa, though.

Well it is what it is... ... and a additional part of my comment was, "where repeatable accuracy down to parts per million or more accuracy" and that makes the power conditioner for a AV system non-effective audibly and almost measurably ineffective too. What is @amirm's metering gear capable of in ppm/%? I take your comment seriously because it is factual...

The real limiting factor for me is when the power conditioner is loaded down it becomes a voltage drop/resistive and that's a major liability.

 

[ClassG33]

Major faux pas there... sigh* I can explain and have the time if you can make the time...

Always down for conversation maybe on another forum tho I need to stay focused on the matter at hand haha I am easily distracted!

 

[Hayabusa]

Using @mhardy6647's image and frequency analysis I am going to call this one at 60 Hz fundamental.
View attachment 357730

this is at 40Hz

 

[ClassG33]

So I unboxed the amp, and cosmetically flawless so far. Previous things like unbalanced feet, dents in the bottom chassis, warped knob are
a thing of the past. This one even included a little satchel with the odor absorbent beads, and I am suddenly feeling much more optimistic! the other one did not have the beads so if THAT'S not a good sign idk what is lol :')
Did not get a chance to plug it all in, so it's back in the box, but I will be able to this morning or afternoon.

 

[Doodski]

this is at 40Hz

The plot thickens even further and gets more embarrassing as it goes along...LoL. It was a very long day...

 

[restorer-john]

Well it is what it is... ... and a additional part of my comment was, "where repeatable accuracy down to parts per million or more accuracy" and that makes the power conditioner for a AV system non-effective audibly and almost measurably ineffective too. What is @amirm's metering gear capable of in ppm/%? I take your comment seriously because it is factual...

The real limiting factor for me is when the power conditioner is loaded down it becomes a voltage drop/resistive and that's a major liability.

@Doodski PPM is 0.0001% or -120dB below. It's on the limit of test gear, with even an APX-555B being in its final order of accuracy. 1ppm is silly stuff. The temperature can affect it. The angle of the cables can affect it. A lamp above your bench can throw it off. Just moving an internal power cable a few mm can change it.