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MBL Pre-amp De-Thrones Benchmark?

CDMC

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What took ya so long? I dumped vinyl in the late 80's! Went 30 years without it! :)
My dad was a professional musician. It has taken me this long to get around to having someone burn his albums to digital. If not for that, I would have been out 20+ years ago.
 

JeffS7444

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Are we overlooking the fact that enthusiasts of all kinds seek meaning in the things they surround themselves with; meaning which goes well beyond that which can be quantified?

From the world of luxury goods, I present some "statement" videos:
Cartier (wonder who they were trying to woo back at the time?)
Chanel

From the world of technology, if you've got a couple of hours to spare, there's the Apple's 2020 World Wide Developer's Conference keynote which ostensibly announces new products to the developer community, but it's very much a vision piece too.

And on a much more modest scale, MBL has also produced a video statement about themselves, or at least how they'd like to be perceived.

When emotional attachments are considered, is it any wonder if many audiophiles don't want to be "saved" by science?
 

CDMC

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Are we overlooking the fact that enthusiasts of all kinds seek meaning in the things they surround themselves with; meaning which goes well beyond that which can be quantified?

From the world of luxury goods, I present some "statement" videos:
Cartier (wonder who they were trying to woo back at the time?)
Chanel

From the world of technology, if you've got a couple of hours to spare, there's the Apple's 2020 World Wide Developer's Conference keynote which ostensibly announces new products to the developer community, but it's very much a vision piece too.

And on a much more modest scale, MBL has also produced a video statement about themselves, or at least how they'd like to be perceived.

When emotional attachments are considered, is it any wonder if many audiophiles don't want to be "saved" by science?
I think the majority of the high end market is driven by perception, not value or data. This is regardless of the product. I’m an attorney and most people judge the quality of an attorney by bill rate and office location. I have my office in a very affluent area and charge an average rate for my services, given my 20 years of experience and quality of work. I have dealt with attorneys that charge twice what I do, that shouldn’t be allowed to practice given their work is so poor. I have also dealt with insurance defense attorneys that charge half my rate that I believe are better attorneys than I am. Ironically insurance defense attorneys are seen as the lowly attorneys in the legal world, but from what I have seen, consistently have among the best work product.

Regardless of the product or service, most expensive is not necessarily the best and the best value is usually somewhere in the midrange.
 

Dialectic

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Dialectic

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Are we overlooking the fact that enthusiasts of all kinds seek meaning in the things they surround themselves with; meaning which goes well beyond that which can be quantified?

From the world of luxury goods, I present some "statement" videos:
Cartier (wonder who they were trying to woo back at the time?)
Chanel

From the world of technology, if you've got a couple of hours to spare, there's the Apple's 2020 World Wide Developer's Conference keynote which ostensibly announces new products to the developer community, but it's very much a vision piece too.

And on a much more modest scale, MBL has also produced a video statement about themselves, or at least how they'd like to be perceived.

When emotional attachments are considered, is it any wonder if many audiophiles don't want to be "saved" by science?
No, we're not overlooking it. We're saying that, by and large, the quest for non-quantifiable meaning in luxury goods is pointless, wasteful, and fucking stupid, especially in audio.
 
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MattHooper

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Thread Starter #107
Here's another:

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
Good for Jason. Looks like he gets a real kick out of whistling.

My Dad, a Jazz musician/band leader and music teacher, was a superb whistler. It wasn't as hobby or entertainment, just something he'd do occasionally, and I'd often stop and listen; it was so musical. One of the many things I miss about my Dad...
 

anmpr1

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Jason, a man who obviously knows the intricacies of music, falls victim to a common fallacy--that of ascribing to an external material artifact what is essentially an internal immaterial mental process. We know this difference as the difference between the sensible and the intelligible.

Music is a mental process. What I mean is that written notes on paper along with the actual sound are physical, material, but the recognition of the sound as music is a mental act. One does not 'perceive' music. One perceives sound. The integration of sound into understandable patterns (music) is a mental intuition. It is akin to speech/semantics in language. The former is material, the latter an internal thing.

In their reviews, Jason and others like him engage in a species or type of reification. Their mental faculty 'constructs' a musical understanding which can vary depending upon how one happens to interpret the physical notes/sounds at any particular 'listening'. If they happen to be using a new (especially an expensive) preamp (or DAC or whatever) they then erroneously attribute their 'new' musical insights to the external thing that is reproducing the sound (preamp, amp, DAC), when in fact it is their own internal mental process that is offering them the 'new' musical insights.

You can tell this by descriptions in their reviews. They usually do not talk about physical (measurable) things like distortion and frequency response aberrations--things that could actually cause a perceived change in the physical sound, but rather talk in an almost mystical way about their inner response to the music.

One can demonstrate this to oneself by thinking about how one frequently 'hears' music 'in new ways' using the same gear. This 'new way' is not perceptual but internal--depending upon how one listens and integrates the sound. In other words, it does not derive within and from the gear itself.
 

SIY

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Jason, a man who obviously knows the intricacies of music, falls victim to a common fallacy--that of ascribing to an external material artifact what is essentially an internal immaterial mental process. We know this difference as the difference between the sensible and the intelligible.

Music is a mental process. What I mean is that written notes on paper along with the actual sound are physical, material, but the recognition of the sound as music is a mental act. One does not 'perceive' music. One perceives sound. The integration of sound into understandable patterns (music) is a mental intuition. It is akin to speech/semantics in language. The former is material, the latter an internal thing.

In their reviews, Jason and others like him engage in a species or type of reification. Their mental faculty 'constructs' a musical understanding which can vary depending upon how one happens to interpret the physical notes/sounds at any particular 'listening'. If they happen to be using a new (especially an expensive) preamp (or DAC or whatever) they then erroneously attribute their 'new' musical insights to the external thing that is reproducing the sound (preamp, amp, DAC), when in fact it is their own internal mental process that is offering them the 'new' musical insights.

You can tell this by descriptions in their reviews. They usually do not talk about physical (measurable) things like distortion and frequency response aberrations--things that could actually cause a perceived change in the physical sound, but rather talk in an almost mystical way about their inner response to the music.

One can demonstrate this to oneself by thinking about how one frequently 'hears' music 'in new ways' using the same gear. This 'new way' is not perceptual but internal--depending upon how one listens and integrates the sound. In other words, it does not derive within and from the gear itself.
Shorter version: Jason is both deluded and unhindered by any particular understanding of the technologies he writes about.

I think that's the kindest conclusion.
 

anmpr1

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Shorter version: Jason is both deluded and unhindered by any particular understanding of the technologies he writes about. I think that's the kindest conclusion.
Well, SIY, you're not just whistling in the wind! :cool:
 

Tks

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Umm, what's the point of pre-amps anymore considering DAC's these days easily suffice?
 

Tks

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Er....switching between sources?

(That's what I do with mine).
Most DACs have usually three or more inputs though? How many sources does one need? Or are you talking about some professional application?
 
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MattHooper

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Thread Starter #114
Most DACs have usually three or more inputs though? How many sources does one need? Or are you talking about some professional application?
Oh, well yes you could buy a DAC that has switching capabilities for multiple inputs. Though that's generally by converting everything to digital.
I'm switching sources between my digital source (DAC) and my analog source (vinyl/turntable set up). I prefer to keep my digital source digital/analog source analog. My pre-amp let's me do that. Plus...I like tube amplification, so it satisfies my desire to have a tube preamp.

So the answer to "what's the point of pre-amps anymore?" will depend on the goals and desires of the user of course.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Most DACs have usually three or more inputs though? How many sources does one need? Or are you talking about some professional application?
In my case, which is unusual since it is multichannel, none of the DACs have multiple inputs unless one includes ethernet as accepting more than one source. OTOH, I need a device to support more than one multichannel DAC. Any thoughts? :)
 

Tks

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In my case, which is unusual since it is multichannel, none of the DACs have multiple inputs unless one includes ethernet as accepting more than one source. OTOH, I need a device to support more than one multichannel DAC. Any thoughts? :)
A device to support a multichannel DAC. I'm just not understanding I suppose. Like if you have something like an Okto DAC.. What do you mean when you say you need "a device" that supports multiple input DACs? Why would the inputs ordeal differ if it was multi-channel or not? I understand you can say there aren't many multi-channel DACs, sure, but the topic was amount of inputs?
 

anmpr1

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Umm, what's the point of pre-amps anymore considering DAC's these days easily suffice?
I miss full function preamplification. If everything is digits it's not a problem since you can control it all via software. But for analog sources it's different. I use a DAC3hgc which has preamp features, however I miss: balance control, tone control, high pass (subsonic) filtering, mono/A/B/reverse switching. All those are important for analog sources.

PS: I checked the MBL site for some info, and it didn't appear that this high-end wunderkind has any traditional preamp features like the ones I mentioned above. Maybe it does, buried in an on screen menu tree, but the documentation was sparse and didn't mention them. If it doesn't have them then this is a poor excuse for a stand alone preamplifier IMO.
 
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q3cpma

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Jason, a man who obviously knows the intricacies of music, falls victim to a common fallacy--that of ascribing to an external material artifact what is essentially an internal immaterial mental process. We know this difference as the difference between the sensible and the intelligible.

Music is a mental process. What I mean is that written notes on paper along with the actual sound are physical, material, but the recognition of the sound as music is a mental act. One does not 'perceive' music. One perceives sound. The integration of sound into understandable patterns (music) is a mental intuition. It is akin to speech/semantics in language. The former is material, the latter an internal thing.

In their reviews, Jason and others like him engage in a species or type of reification. Their mental faculty 'constructs' a musical understanding which can vary depending upon how one happens to interpret the physical notes/sounds at any particular 'listening'. If they happen to be using a new (especially an expensive) preamp (or DAC or whatever) they then erroneously attribute their 'new' musical insights to the external thing that is reproducing the sound (preamp, amp, DAC), when in fact it is their own internal mental process that is offering them the 'new' musical insights.

You can tell this by descriptions in their reviews. They usually do not talk about physical (measurable) things like distortion and frequency response aberrations--things that could actually cause a perceived change in the physical sound, but rather talk in an almost mystical way about their inner response to the music.

One can demonstrate this to oneself by thinking about how one frequently 'hears' music 'in new ways' using the same gear. This 'new way' is not perceptual but internal--depending upon how one listens and integrates the sound. In other words, it does not derive within and from the gear itself.
As a quite wise man said, "they muddy the waters to make it seem deep".
 

Kal Rubinson

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A device to support a multichannel DAC. I'm just not understanding I suppose. Like if you have something like an Okto DAC.. What do you mean when you say you need "a device" that supports multiple input DACs? Why would the inputs ordeal differ if it was multi-channel or not? I understand you can say there aren't many multi-channel DACs, sure, but the topic was amount of inputs?
I have more than one multichannel DAC. I am dealing with the clumsiness of connecting/changing their analog outputs.
 
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