Looking to power up my Sundaras

[Jose Hidalgo]

Wow ! The Zen Can is huge compared to your D10s ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-and-zen-can-with-hd660s.16649/post-538046 ). I understand why it's more powerful than the L30. But AFAIK the L30 is more than enough to drive a pair of Sundara. I don't even know why people say they're so difficult to drive. They're 37 Ohm and 94 dB, whereas the HD600 are 300 Ohm and 97 dB. And people with L30+HD600 are really happy. Am I missing something ?
(I wouldn't be able to make the Zen Can fit in my furniture anyway)

With that said, if Zen Can's measurements are on par with Zen Dac's measurements, then there's nothing good to expect.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Wow ! The Zen Can is huge compared to your D10s ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-and-zen-can-with-hd660s.16649/post-538046 ). I understand why it's more powerful than the L30. But AFAIK the L30 is more than enough to drive a pair of Sundara. I don't even know why people say they're so difficult to drive. They're 37 Ohm and 94 dB, whereas the HD600 are 300 Ohm and 97 dB. And people with L30+HD600 are really happy. Am I missing something ?
(I wouldn't be able to make the Zen Can fit in my furniture anyway)

With that said, if Zen Can's measurements are on par with Zen Dac's measurements, then there's nothing good to expect.

Why do you say that the Zen Can is more powerful? Isn't the L30 2300mW x 2 @32ohms while the Zen Can is measured at 1600mW x 2 @32ohms. Am I missing something?

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I guess I just compared their single-ended (S-E) outputs :

• Zen Can : 1600 mW @ 32 Ohm and 196 mW @300 Ohm (see chart on page 1 of this topic)
• L30 : 1040 mW @ 33 Ohm and 117 mW @ 300 Ohm (see here)

The Zen Can is about 1.5 times more powerful than the L30 in S-E mode, which makes sense as it's much more bulky.

But to me that's not important. The L30 may not be the most powerful amp in its class, but it's definitely one of the most powerful, with great max output results like Amir implied in his review. It's more than enough to drive a pair of Sundaras or a pair of HD600. That I can promise you.

You should really not focus on power / be afraid of that part. Just ask L30/Sundara owners (or L30/HD600 owners as the HD600 are more complicated to drive than the Sundara). Once again, the Sundara are only 37 Ohm and 94 dB, whereas the HD600 are 300 Ohm and 97 dB. Figures don't lie.

 

[raif71]

Wow ! The Zen Can is huge compared to your D10s ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-and-zen-can-with-hd660s.16649/post-538046 ). I understand why it's more powerful than the L30. But AFAIK the L30 is more than enough to drive a pair of Sundara. I don't even know why people say they're so difficult to drive. They're 37 Ohm and 94 dB, whereas the HD600 are 300 Ohm and 97 dB. And people with L30+HD600 are really happy. Am I missing something ?
(I wouldn't be able to make the Zen Can fit in my furniture anyway)

With that said, if Zen Can's measurements are on par with Zen Dac's measurements, then there's nothing good to expect.

It's the design of the Zen Can and the way I positioned it with the D10s. Not much can be done as the Can's face is on the long side and D10's face is on the short side.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

I guess I just compared their single-ended (S-E) outputs :

• Zen Can : 1600 mW @ 32 Ohm and 196 mW @300 Ohm (see chart on page 1 of this topic)
• L30 : 1040 mW @ 33 Ohm and 117 mW @ 300 Ohm (see here)

The Zen Can is about 1.5 times more powerful than the L30 in S-E mode, which makes sense as it's much more bulky.

But to me that's not important. The L30 may not be the most powerful amp in its class, but it's definitely one of the most powerful, with great max output results like Amir implied in his review. It's more than enough to drive a pair of Sundaras or a pair of HD600. That I can promise you.

You should really not focus on power / be afraid of that part. Just ask L30/Sundara owners (or L30/HD600 owners as the HD600 are more complicated to drive than the Sundara). Once again, the Sundara are only 37 Ohm and 94 dB, whereas the HD600 are 300 Ohm and 97 dB. Figures don't lie.

I got my L30 specs here...https://theheadphonelist.com/topping-l30-amplifier-review-royal-lineage/...are they wrong?
And I have been comparing the HD660s to the Sundaras not the HD600

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Have you looked at the graphs in my link ? Amir has measured the L30 himself. Blindly trust his measurements. If there was anything wrong with them, @JohnYang1997 from Topping would have already said it since he basically lives in this forum.

I'm talking about the HD600 because the HD600 are harder to drive than both the HD660s and the Sundara. Hence if a L30 can drive a pair of HD600, he can drive a pair of HD660s or a pair of Sundara. Which it does with ease in all three cases.

 

[raif71]

I got my L30 specs here...https://theheadphonelist.com/topping-l30-amplifier-review-royal-lineage/...are they wrong?
And I have been comparing the HD660s to the Sundaras not the HD600

The thing with L30 power specs is that the measurements released are the max the L30 can achieve. This is fine and true if the DACs that feed the L30 has output more than 2V however if you're planning to use E30 which has max 2.1V then the L30 will give lower power measurements so you have to be careful which specs you're referring to.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

I got my L30 specs here...https://theheadphonelist.com/topping-l30-amplifier-review-royal-lineage/...are they wrong?
And I have been comparing the HD660s to the Sundaras not the HD600

Never mind that statement I quoted on power output for the L30. I just ran into this on Reddit...

"One thing to keep in mind is that on their specs page Topping lists the l30 as being able to output 2.3ws into 32 ohms but that appears to be very misleading. Based on Amir's measurements it only does 1.04ws into 32ohms. Topping apparently based their rating on a dac with abnormally high power output which inflated the numbers.
At 2v RMS which is the standard dac output you will only get the 1.04w. I personally find this quite poor behavior on Topping part as most people are not going to be using dacs that exceed 2v given that the L30 only has RCA inputs. IMO this appears to be intended to mislead people into thinking the L30 has greater power output than its competitors like the Schiit Magni, which wont be the case for the vast majority of its users.
If you are in the camp who thinks measurements of a certain level equals audible transparency, you should probably not buy this amp as the Heresy offers more power for most users and good enough measured performance. Even the JDS labs atom is effectively as good at 2v input.
Its nice that people outside the US have a option that will likely be more affordable but Topping should be called out for this as many people are going to buy thinking they are getting more power than they are."

That explains the numbers that you provided. I guess I will have to wait and see tomorrow what it sounds like. It would be nice if the Zen Can was reviewed here to know for sure though.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

The thing with L30 power specs is that the measurements released are the max the L30 can achieve. This is fine and true if the DACs that feed the L30 has output more than 2V however if you're planning to use E30 which has max 2.1V then the L30 will give lower power measurements so you have to be careful which specs you're referring to.

At this time I will be using a Soundblaster Z soundcard. I wonder how many volts that outputs (or is it puts out?)

 

[raif71]

At this time I will be using a Soundblaster Z soundcard. I wonder how many volts that outputs (or is it puts out?)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nd-measurements-of-sound-blaster-z-card.9127/

 

[GDK]

I just pulled mine out again. My Sundaras played through my L30 at neutral gain, my fed by my E30, with the volume attenuated to 50 (out of 100) through Roon, were loud to me (and my ears are not good - just look at my avatar). That leaves aside the additional headroom available through Roon and the +9db gain switch.

I think you will be fine.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Of course he will, that's what we're trying to tell him. Maybe he doesn't get why L30 power output is more than enough for all the usual cans.

The Reddit guy that's unhappy with such power is either stupid OR he's expecting a 139$ amp to be able to drive much harder cans, (and I mean "exceptionally harder"), which is of course impossible. But for all the usual cans, it's more than enough. We shouldn't even be discussing that part anymore.

Oh, and the Reddit guy's quote doesn't make sense. "You should probably not buy this amp" ? The guy either hasn't read Amir's measurements, or doesn't know how to read them. That just disqualifies him.

Well TechEnthusiast, good luck with your testing, that's all I can say.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nd-measurements-of-sound-blaster-z-card.9127/

So it will suffice as a DAC. Line out fronts were considered very good. I just have to dial back the output to minimize distortion....which will put it in the 2 volt range.

 

[raistlin65]

Oh, and the Reddit guy's quote doesn't make sense. "You should probably not buy this amp" ? The guy either hasn't read Amir's measurements, or doesn't know how to read them. That just disqualifies him.

He's talking about US-based pricing. Atom and Heresy are $100. L30 is $140. With a standard 2V DAC output, L30 amp power performance is similar to the Atom, and the slightly higher SINAD over Atom and Heresy is going to be inaudible. So it's 40% more here for comparable performance to the other two.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Of course he will, that's what we're trying to tell him. Maybe he doesn't get why L30 power output is more than enough for all the usual cans.

The Reddit guy that's unhappy with such power is either stupid OR he's expecting a 139$ amp to be able to drive much harder cans, (and I mean "exceptionally harder"), which is of course impossible. But for all the usual cans, it's more than enough. We shouldn't even be discussing that part anymore.

Oh, and the Reddit guy's quote doesn't make sense. "You should probably not buy this amp" ? The guy either hasn't read Amir's measurements, or doesn't know how to read them. That just disqualifies him.

You did not read what he said then. He said that it was in Amir's measurements that led him to suspect that Topping was misleading the consumer by making it look more powerful than it actually is.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

@raistlin : I don't think it's fair to talk about "comparable" performance. In HiFi, we always pay much more (and I generally mean thousands of $/€ more) for marginally better performance. Here, we pay only a few bucks more for top-of-the-class performance. The point is not whether or not everybody can hear it. If we really want "sufficient" performance, we may as well buy one of previous-gen amps. They too will be enough, and possibly cheaper than $100.

As for @TechEnthusiast , I don't need to read any manufacturer specs (as most of them are exaggerated) when I can read REAL WORLD measurements by Amir. If at this point you are still worried about L30 power when GDK, a Sundara user, has just told you that it's not an issue, then maybe you are the one who doesn't read.

Once again, good luck. I'm out of here.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

@raistlin : I don't think it's fair to talk about "comparable" performance. In HiFi, we always pay much more (and I generally mean thousands of $/€ more) for marginally better performance. Here, we pay only a few bucks more for top-of-the-class performance. The point is not whether or not everybody can hear it. If we really want "sufficient" performance, we may as well buy one of previous-gen amps. They too will be enough, and possibly cheaper than $100.

As for @TechEnthusiast , I don't need to read any manufacturer specs (as most of them are exaggerated) when I can read REAL WORLD measurements by Amir. If at this point you are still worried about L30 power when GDK, a Sundara user, has just told you that it's not an issue, then maybe you are the one who doesn't read.

Once again, good luck. I'm out of here.

No. Just the opposite. I cannot wait until it arrives tomorrow. And believe me I will listen to both the L30 and the ifi Zen Can and share my view here.

 

[raistlin65]

@raistlin : I don't think it's fair to talk about "comparable" performance. In HiFi, we always pay much more (and I generally mean thousands of $/€ more) for marginally better performance. Here, we pay only a few bucks more for top-of-the-class performance. The point is not whether or not everybody can hear it. If we really want "sufficient" performance, we may as well buy one of previous-gen amps. They too will be enough, and possibly cheaper than $100.

I think it's fair. Based off Amir's measurements, by almost any standard of human hearing, Heresy and Atom will sound audibly the same as L30. This is not "sufficient" performance, but rather the highest fidelity.

The primary reason to buy the L30 over those other two amps is if one wants to use it with low impedance, very high sensitivity IEMs. For those users, the -9db low gain is a very useful option.

 

[GDK]

The primary reason to buy the L30 over those other two amps is if one wants to use it with low impedance, very high sensitivity IEMs.

Two other key reasons to buy it are:
1) it matches your E30, and
2) you can complain to John Yang directly if you don’t like it (JK John - I love mine !)

 

[TechEnthusiast]

I have both L30 and Zen Can (A50s too ). Here is ifi zen can published specs @ https://ifi-audio.com/products/zen-can/

View attachment 89541

If you're thinking about using the Can with iems, better think again. I listened the Can using Thieaudio L3 @0db and the volume was circa 9 o'clock and that was already loud with SE. With iems, L30 is the best bet with -9db gain. The Can is best used with headphones and if you plan to get balanced cable with the headphones the the Zen Can is the better choice however remember, Amir has not measure the Can yet so this info is important too . Also the L30 has E30 and A50s has the D50s as their pairing DAC. Currently I'm pairing the Can with Topping D10s.

The Zen Can sounds pretty good on my Sure se535 IEm's at 12 o'clock @ 0db (dac vol only at 50% tho)....Heck I can even do 12 o'clock on +16db with dac vol at 15%.... This thing is pretty strong. Wonder why they did not include a -db setting on it