Looking to power up my Sundaras

[TechEnthusiast]

Two other key reasons to buy it are:
1) it matches your E30, and
2) you can complain to John Yang directly if you don’t like it (JK John - I love mine !)

Is that a good combo? I will be upgrading from the Z sound card after I figure out which amp I like best.

 

[GDK]

Is that a good combo? I will be upgrading from the Z sound card after I figure out which amp I like best.

If aesthetics matter to you, as it does for me, then yes it is a great combo.

If aesthetics don’r matter to you, then yes, it is still a great combo.

But @raistlin65 makes at good point. There are now lots of audibly transparent DACs and HPAs available. The choice really comes down to what features you are after.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Wow ! The Zen Can is huge compared to your D10s ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-and-zen-can-with-hd660s.16649/post-538046 ). I understand why it's more powerful than the L30. But AFAIK the L30 is more than enough to drive a pair of Sundara. I don't even know why people say they're so difficult to drive. They're 37 Ohm and 94 dB, whereas the HD600 are 300 Ohm and 97 dB. And people with L30+HD600 are really happy. Am I missing something ?
(I wouldn't be able to make the Zen Can fit in my furniture anyway)

With that said, if Zen Can's measurements are on par with Zen Dac's measurements, then there's nothing good to expect.

Hopefully this Lab report will help with the numbers game.
LAB REPORT IFI AUDIO ZEN CAN We’ve tested numerous iterations of iFi Audio’s portable headphone amps, including the nano iDSD [HFN Dec ’14], the ‘Black Label’ variant [HFN Apr ’18], the ‘original’ xCAN [HFN Feb ’19] and EISA Award-winning xDSD [HFN Jul ’18], and ZEN DAC [HFN Jul ’20] – all, except the xCAN, incorporating DAC and headphone amp functions. The new ZEN-shaped CAN, like the xCAN, is a purely ‘analogue’ headphone preamp but, by some margin, is its most capable to date, exceeding the output of all its predecessors by delivering up to 1580mW (1.6W)/32ohm and a not insubstantial 655mW/8ohm. However, power output is influenced by the CAN’s gain setting, falling to 425mW/32ohm in its 0dB mode [see Graph 1, below]. Other factors, including distortion and the A-wtd S/N are also skewed by your choice of gain setting, not least because the ZEN CAN’s auto level-matching op-amp input sees a marked increase in THD with inputs beyond 550mV (from 0.001% at 400mV in, to 0.02% at 900mV in). The input clips at 3.7V. With the gain set to +12dB or +18dB, THD falls to as low as 0.00025-0.0017% (0dBV/600ohm), increasing under load (10mW/32ohm) to 0.0013-0.0019% [see Graph 2, below]. In practice the 0dB mode is ideal for high sensitivity earbuds as it offers the widest 100.5dB A-wtd S/N ratio (re. 0dBV) and lowest –100dBV residual noise. The +18dB gain setting offers 93.9dB and –97dBV, respectively. Output impedance is impressively low at 510-800mohm in the 0dB setting, reducing still further to 415-605mohm in the +18dB mode, while the response is flat to within ±0.1dB from 1Hz-60kHz [see boxout, p73]. So, in practice, the ZEN CAN will cause very little modification to the overall system response regardless of the impedance of the attached headphones. P

 

[TechEnthusiast]

If aesthetics matter to you, as it does for me, then yes it is a great combo.

If aesthetics don’r matter to you, then yes, it is still a great combo.

But @raistlin65 makes at good point. There are now lots of audibly transparent DACs and HPAs available. The choice really comes down to what features you are after.

Aesthetics are important to me as well. As much as I like the Zen Can's performance I want to find something that doesn't look like a flask...
Plus, as you can see, it is not stack friendly : ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-and-zen-can-with-hd660s.16649/post-538046 )

 

[raif71]

The Zen Can sounds pretty good on my Sure se535 IEm's at 12 o'clock @ 0db (dac vol only at 50% tho)....Heck I can even do 12 o'clock on +16db with dac vol at 15%.... This thing is pretty strong. Wonder why they did not include a -db setting on it

That's a good usecase ie reducing the DAC's volume for the ifi Zen Can

 

[raif71]

Aesthetics are important to me as well. As much as I like the Zen Can's performance I want to find something that doesn't look like a flask...
Plus, as you can see, it is not stack friendly : ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-and-zen-can-with-hd660s.16649/post-538046 )

Ouch

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Moving forward, what would be a recommendation for a DAC for the L30. From Topping I see a d10, d10s, and the E30 that look like matching sets. Is it just more $ better results. Or is there something from another manufacturer that would be a better match.

 

[Cahudson42]

Suggest there is no reason to consider the D10. It has been superceded by the D10s better performing model.

FWIW, I used a D10 for a bit in USB OTG mode with a Fire 7 tablet. 3-wire 'charging' cable. My D10 would not power up unless there was an active charger attached. It also was sensitive to either noise or fluctuation in the charger, and would randomly reset itself. I eventually found a charger where the D10 stopped resetting. after 3 or 4 charger replacements..

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Suggest there is no reason to consider the D10. It has been superceded by the D10s better performing model.

FWIW, I used a D10 for a bit in USB OTG mode with a Fire 7 tablet. 3-wire 'charging' cable. My D10 would not power up unless there was an active charger attached. It also was sensitive to either noise or fluctuation in the charger, and would randomly reset itself. I eventually found a charger where the D10 stopped resetting. after 3 or 4 charger replacements..

So I will move towards the D10s or the E30

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Well the Topping L30 arrived today and I wasted no time hooking it up and comparing it against the ifi Zen Can. But before we go there I also have a Fiio E10 at my disposal to throw into the mix. Using it as a DAC for the comparison between the Topping and the Zen Can as well as a stand alone. I will also be using my Soundblaster Z Card on my PC at 70% out of the front output; rated as Very Good by Amirm (Personally, I like the Z card better than the Fiio E10 as a DAC plus you can EQ and SBX with it if you so desire).

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nd-measurements-of-sound-blaster-z-card.9127/

This is more of an objective test than a subjective one. I have no tools other than my ears and a lifetime of listening. I did not detect any differences in sound signature other than when I switched out the DACs, and in doing so it presented each of the DACs signature similarly. I did check for any audible noise on these amps when the music was paused and they were all dead quiet (unlike my Old airhead that literally scratched and clawed its way to louder sound). This test is an attempt to see which unit delivers the most power. The headphones used are the Sennheiser HD 660s and the Hifiman Sundara. All these amps are capable of driving these 2 headphones quite well.

The Fiio E10 had to be maxed out to keep up with the Topping, but the Topping won out with plenty of room to spare, but it had to do so at the +9 db gain setting, and of course the little Fiio was set to high gain as well. Before this test I had a Fiio K5 pro to see if it was just a size difference thing when comparing the Fiio E10 to the Zen Can. While the K5 pro did beat out the E10 it was more on the same level as the Topping, in fact it is a great value for anyone looking for a combo unit as it has a DAC onboard.

Now on to the direct comparison. When the Topping is (pretty much maxed out) at +9db and 4 o'clock and the Zen Can is at +6db and 2 o'clock they are the same. This is after much trial and error through many A/B scenarios. At the +12db the Zen Dac comfortably drives either of these headphones to insane levels, and there is another level after that +18. Now I may have a different threshold for listening levels than some of you but I do not listen to it blistering all the time, only now and again when there is a song like YYZ from Rush that takes me there. And there is nothing worse than running out of “dial” when that moment occurs. With the Zen Can you don’t run out of “dial”.

One more thing to consider is that this was all done via single ended/rca connections. When I use the balanced cables on the Sennheisers then it goes to a whole different level on the Zen Can that is truly not necessary for these headphones.

Finally, there is that BassX button on the Zen Can.......I know that I shouldn't touch it....but when I do it is really hard to go back to listening with it off, especially at lower listening levels. The only negative for me besides the look and the fact that it is un-stackable is that it cannot serve as a pre-amp for my desktop speakers.

As a side note I found that the Zen was louder using single ended vs RCA and that makes me wonder what is up with that.

 

[raif71]

Well the Topping L30 arrived today and I wasted no time hooking it up and comparing it against the ifi Zen Can. But before we go there I also have a Fiio E10 at my disposal to throw into the mix. Using it as a DAC for the comparison between the Topping and the Zen Can as well as a stand alone. I will also be using my Soundblaster Z Card on my PC at 70% out of the front output; rated as Very Good by Amirm (Personally, I like the Z card better than the Fiio E10 as a DAC plus you can EQ and SBX with it if you so desire).

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nd-measurements-of-sound-blaster-z-card.9127/

This is more of an objective test than a subjective one. I have no tools other than my ears and a lifetime of listening. I did not detect any differences in sound signature other than when I switched out the DACs, and in doing so it presented each of the DACs signature similarly. I did check for any audible noise on these amps when the music was paused and they were all dead quiet (unlike my Old airhead that literally scratched and clawed its way to louder sound). This test is an attempt to see which unit delivers the most power. The headphones used are the Sennheiser HD 660s and the Hifiman Sundara. All these amps are capable of driving these 2 headphones quite well.

The Fiio E10 had to be maxed out to keep up with the Topping, but the Topping won out with plenty of room to spare, but it had to do so at the +9 db gain setting, and of course the little Fiio was set to high gain as well. Before this test I had a Fiio K5 pro to see if it was just a size difference thing when comparing the Fiio E10 to the Zen Can. While the K5 pro did beat out the E10 it was more on the same level as the Topping, in fact it is a great value for anyone looking for a combo unit as it has a DAC onboard.

Now on to the direct comparison. When the Topping is (pretty much maxed out) at +9db and 4 o'clock and the Zen Can is at +6db and 2 o'clock they are the same. This is after much trial and error through many A/B scenarios. At the +12db the Zen Dac comfortably drives either of these headphones to insane levels, and there is another level after that +18. Now I may have a different threshold for listening levels than some of you but I do not listen to it blistering all the time, only now and again when there is a song like YYZ from Rush that takes me there. And there is nothing worse than running out of “dial” when that moment occurs. With the Zen Can you don’t run out of “dial”.

One more thing to consider is that this was all done via single ended/rca connections. When I use the balanced cables on the Sennheisers then it goes to a whole different level on the Zen Can that is truly not necessary for these headphones.

Finally, there is that BassX button on the Zen Can.......I know that I shouldn't touch it....but when I do it is really hard to go back to listening with it off, especially at lower listening levels. The only negative for me besides the look and the fact that it is un-stackable is that it cannot serve as a pre-amp for my desktop speakers.

As a side note I found that the Zen was louder using single ended vs RCA and that makes me wonder what is up with that.

I agree with you on this as I have both Zen Can and L30. I would say power wise the Zen Can is the more powerful one and remember it can also accommodate balanced DAC should you want to get one in the future. I'm planning to get smsl su-8 and I already found the cable for it ie 2 3pin xlr female to 4.4mm pentaconn. Now the smsl su-8 should stack well with the Can. Can on top that is.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

I agree with you on this as I have both Zen Can and L30. I would say power wise the Zen Can is the more powerful one and remember it can also accommodate balanced DAC should you want to get one in the future. I'm planning to get smsl su-8 and I already found the cable for it ie 2 3pin xlr female to 4.4mm pentaconn. Now the smsl su-8 should stack well with the Can. Can on top that is.

That was another question that I had. What is the importance of a balanced dac

 

[raif71]

That was another question that I had. What is the importance of a balanced dac

It should benefit from lower noise as I understand it and xlr should be able to deliver more power to the amp but I guess SE is already just fine. This is me just wanting a wider form factor for the Can to sit on top and if the xlr out is there, why not use it.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

It should benefit from lower noise as I understand it and xlr should be able to deliver more power to the amp but I guess SE is already just fine. This is me just wanting a wider form factor for the Can to sit on top and if the xlr out is there, why not use it.

First things first for me. And I believe that I have found the amp. I do not see the need for anything more powerful than it especially balanced.
I would think looking for a dac that has a a pentagon connection would be better and sleeker than those big ugly xlr. And you don't have to stack it if there is no need for controls on the face of it so you could hide it and not have to stack it.

 

[raif71]

First things first for me. And I believe that I have found the amp. I do not see the need for anything more powerful than it especially balanced.
I would think looking for a dac that has a a pentagon connection would be better and sleeker than those big ugly xlr. And you don't have to stack it if there is no need for controls on the face of it so you could hide it and not have to stack it.

You mean, the Zen Dac? If it is just a dac, I wouldn't mind getting it but it is a dac/amp... not particularly fond of a volume dial on a dac. So far only the Zen Dac is the one I know that has a pentaconn connection, other DACs are using xlr for balanced. Maybe I should wait for Topping D30Pro... that DAC is balanced but still using xlr.

 

[raistlin65]

Finally, there is that BassX button on the Zen Can.......I know that I shouldn't touch it....but when I do it is really hard to go back to listening with it off, especially at lower listening levels. The only negative for me besides the look and the fact that it is un-stackable is that it cannot serve as a pre-amp for my desktop speakers.

You can use Equalizer APO with Peace GUI to achieve whatever bass boost you want. It's free Windows system-wide EQ software.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

You can use Equalizer APO with Peace GUI to achieve whatever bass boost you want. It's free Windows system-wide EQ software.

Yea, I know that. Tried it, but I prefer the EQ on the Z card, for it's simplicity. Perhaps that one is better but there seems to be a lot to learn, maybe in time. The bassX is nice for just a casual boost when not wanting to open up any applications.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

I just pulled mine out again. My Sundaras played through my L30 at neutral gain, my fed by my E30, with the volume attenuated to 50 (out of 100) through Roon, were loud to me (and my ears are not good - just look at my avatar). That leaves aside the additional headroom available through Roon and the +9db gain switch.

I think you will be fine.

What is Roon?