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Level matching speakers for comparative assessement?

Blumlein 88

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How would you best go about level matching speakers to compare them? We know tiny differences in level of electronic components can sound like a quality difference. So how about matching speakers what is a good method?

I think a single tone is no good as speakers may vary too much within a narrow range. Perhaps 1/3 octave white noise centered on 440 hz or 1 khz would work better. Even then speakers variable frequency response would seem to muddy the waters.

Hearing that two speakers are different is not at all hard to do so maybe level matching isn't as important. Yet if one were to get FR rather close it seems matching would become important. I believe the old cliche that hifi is 85% frequency response, but with room correction you can get that FR reasonably close in the listening area. I also ask this question in regards to choosing target curves for DRC.

Dr. Toole had this to say as to why exact level matching is less critical for speakers:

The essence of the timbre of musical and vocal sounds is resonances - these must be captured and preserved. There are other factors, but this is the big one. The job of the loudspeaker is to reproduce those sounds - those resonances - without adding any of its own, thus monotonously coloring everything it reproduces. Research has revealed that levels of resonances in loudspeakers that are just perceptible are perceived as colorations when listening to various kinds of music. The idea is to be able to recognize in a spinorama (see below) the presence of resonances and to be able to evaluate the likelihood that they will be audible when listening to music. Knowing this enables design engineers to manage the compromises that are a part of all loudspeakers, especially those at the bottom of the price scale. At high prices there are simply no excuses for audible resonances.

Low-Q resonances are detectable at very small deviations. This is why broadband spectral variations matter so much. A tilt is detectable at about 0.1 dB/octave or 1 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. We are much more forgiving of high-Q resonances, the ones that ring on and look so alarming in waterfall diagrams. Why? Because in order for them to be energized, a musical spectral component must hit the frequency exactly and stay there long enough to transfer energy. In the ever changing musical sounds, especially anything with vibrato, such instances are rare. It's as simple as that.


Further, loudness grows much more rapidly at low frequencies than at middle to high frequencies, making bass level especially critical. This is a huge variable in recordings and movies because of the lack of standardization in control rooms as can be seen in Figure 2.4 of Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms. The notion that a system can be set up and sound perfect for all recordings is naive.

Now adjusting target curves for a given speaker I have found the tilt to be very critical. Toole says above that .1 db/octave tilt is where it becomes detectable. I have certainly found .2 or .3 db tilts to be easily heard when adjusting DRC target curves for other people's speakers. This leads me to believe level matching when choosing DRC target curves might also require very precise matching yet what is level matched if the tilt of the curve differs?
 

Cosmik

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I believe the old cliche that hifi is 85% frequency response

Maybe it was in the old days, when audio reproduction was all about "It's got a good tone". In a modern DSP-based speaker, the time domain performance (that previously could not be achieved) is revealed to be more important, so we get descriptions like this:
Firstly, the traditional kind of subjective analysis we speaker reviewers default to — describing the tonal balance and making a judgement about the competence of a monitor’s basic frequency response — is somehow rendered a little pointless.... It sounds so transparent and creates such fundamentally believable audio that thoughts of ‘dull’ or ‘bright’ seem somehow superfluous.
 

amirm

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This isn't is the original paper but one that I found:

Perception of Perceived Sound in Rooms:
Some Results of the Athena Project
Peter L. Schuck, Sean E. Olive, James G. Ryan, and Floyd E. Toole

upload_2017-1-12_17-12-43.png
 

amirm

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RayDunzl

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B-weighted...

Gotta buy a new meter...

SoundDecibelABC.gif


Well, at least phons kinda equal decibels (at 1 kHz)

129650d1248525207-mixing-too-loud-too-quiet-fletcher_munson.jpg
 
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tomelex

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a 32 band spectrum analyzer was pretty good for us in the old days to level match speakers for amature tests
 

DonH56

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I always used band-limited pink noise. The idea was to get the average level very close (I always strove for 0.1 dB or so); there are so many small differences across frequency that picking any one frequency is a crap shoot.

The "P" in SPL is pressure, usually expressed in force per unit area IIRC. Loudness charts just convert to dB relative to a standard I've forgotten and would have to look up and the result is expressed in "phons".
 
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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Just a thought, I wonder if a repeated impulse would work well. Adjust till they sound the same loudness. This a by ear approach.

Testing myself, you don't want the impulses closer than about a 1/2 second. Nor further than 1 second. Much like other ways of by ear loudness it is easy to hear 2 db differences. You can hear 1 db differences and beyond that I am not sure. Broadband tilts seemed easier to hear as different. It was possible to narrow in on volume comparing a flat vs tilted impulse. Though again at some point differences of less than 1 db get difficult to hear. You still hear them as different, but an increase of a db or a decrease of a db made them more different. So this wouldn't be accurate to .1 db somehow, but it might be better than nothing. Plus if comparing speakers, setting the levels this way before listening to music wouldn't prejudice you one way or the other I don't think. Not much musical about pop/clicks. Would this in a global sense be the best compromise in speakers which of course all have varying frequency response and dispersion? I don't know.
 

Nightlord

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Testing speakers against each other poses quite a few problems. First of all, you would want to play them from the same place in the room to take that issue out. Unless they have different philosophy on placement. Secondly, you don't want the speaker you're not playing in the room. All speakers work like traps of some kind, so they are interfering (possibly helping) the one playing. Level matching seems quite hard to decide where to set if the response curves aren't very similar. And the last problem I see is how to do the swap close to instantly if they are to change place and one to be hidden. Even with a few state-of-the-art industrial robots, I don't think it can be done fast enough.
 

amirm

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The ones at Harman take about 4 seconds to switch. It is painfully long but given the large differences between speakers, it is adequate.

The location thing can be solved in a symmetrical room. You put one in each corner. Dr. Toole told me that is how he started blind testing speakers (or was it Dr. Olive?).

Finally, you can short out the speaker terminal of the one not playing as a partial solution to them interacting.

So yes it is a bit tricky but seeing how the result of sighted vs blind speaker tests vary, it is mandatory to do.
 

Nightlord

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Harman one is mono too, right? So it won't tell you how well it forms a soundstage, only the sonic character.

Shorting the input will not plug any bass reflex ports, though, so you'll have a helmholz resonator trap there.

I have a couple of extra speakers in the livingroom - one it plugged, the other not... I measured all permutations (besides removing them).
 

amirm

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Harman one is mono too, right?
They also have a multi-channel one:

Harman Shuffler Testing Room #2.PNG
Harman Shuffler Testing Room.PNG


But they have realized it actually deters from proper evaluation of speakers so I don't think it gets as much use.
 

RayDunzl

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Harman rated my speaker type worst (unless you turn the chart upside down) so I don't get any respect from Amir.

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"...and nobody, not even the homeless guy we used as a control, liked this one at all."
"Did you plug in the power cord?"
"What's that do?"
 

amirm

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Harman rated my speaker type worst (unless you turn the chart upside down) so I don't get any respect from Amir."
That's right. I send all the people I don't like to Ray's home! :D

BTW, the speaker tested was without EQ and one of the main issues with it was poor integration of bass which I assume you have fixed with your EQ.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Harman rated my speaker type worst (unless you turn the chart upside down) so I don't get any respect from Amir.

View attachment 5867

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"...and nobody, not even the homeless guy we used as a control, liked this one at all."
"Did you plug in the power cord?"
"What's that do?"
I have had a pair of those exact speakers, Martin Logan Prodigy's, in my system for about 15 years. I was so smitten with them that I got 5 more smaller ML 'stat hybrids when I upgraded to 7.1, which was 10 years ago. Like you, I get no respect from Amir or anyone else around here. Sniffle. Sniffle. Ray, I feel your pain.

Seriously, it is probably a mental thing, a bias going back to my youth and KLH-9's, which I never owned, but read about and salivated over. My DNA says I gotta have electrostat dipoles, better yet hybrids to fix the bass problems.

I will make no claims about my system other than to say that with Dirac EQ, a superb DAC, a beautiful JL Audio f113 sub, nice amps, etc., a huge hi rez Mch classical library on my 54TB NAS has been and is very satisfying to me. Other visitors and friends whose ears I trust agree, candidly and beyond any patronizingly insincere opinions, I trust.

As far as I am concerned, this lifetime goal, the super audio system box on my bucket list, can be checked off. I am a happy man, even if I achieve nothing better. I gave heard slightly better from my perspective. However, I do not need any better, though I go and listen with open ears to many, many claimed "advances" among reviewer friends and elsewhere. Sigh.
 
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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You guys are just confirming Harman's evaluation of the ML. Deficiencies are less noticeable with more than one speaker. Ray has found two M-Ls plus 128 Dayton subs sounds just fine. Fitzcaraldo found 15 M-Ls makes for a super audio system (you know you'll end up with 15 for Atmos).

While being a panel aficionado myself, I have declined to engage in sub-woofery. Plus Harman has released no proof or data whatsoever that my panels sound sub-standard. Which has to mean they have tested my panels, and they were so clearly superior they have suppressed that information to make their products look better. We see the listening panel results they release, but that hardly means they don't have other results they keep to themselves. It is all a ruse to give their products the air of science while actually being a clever marketing ploy.

We'll have to see how Samsung makes use of this after the merger. Perhaps they will have listening panels evaluate the sounds of phones exploding into fireballs.
 
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DonH56

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Integration of bass driver to panels has long been an Achilles' heel. The sound might have been much improved had they EQ'd and gotten the phase alignment right between panel and woofer (unless phasing was OK and it was just EQ?)
 
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