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Is this what is wrong with this hobby?

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Shadrach

Shadrach

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Your question seems sincere enough, and I hope you're figured the answer by now. But say you had a bunch of spare money burning a hole in your pocket and you wanted something nice for your desk at the office. The money doesn't matter, so do you buy something in a crappy plastic box that looks and feels just as cheap as it costs, or do you buy an absolutely beautiful piece of audio jewelry (inside and out) like the HPA-1?

Many would choose the latter. I still wouldn't. But I wouldn't want the Atom, either. I would want something with a PGA2311 or better volume control operated by a rotary encoder (with a hefty, solid knob, preferably detented), the performance of the Atom, plus a balanced output, probably with a DAC built in, and an input switcher, all in a far nicer custom-milled enclosure. That could be delivered for less than Pass is charging, and blow it out of the water. Benchmark has something close to that, but the price is unnecessarily high (licensing fees?) and they don't include the DAC, and it's still sort of ugly. The RME comes closer, but I'm going to guess the casework would add another $500, and analog line in with input switching a bit more.

Different strokes for different folks. Don't get too worked up trying to figure out why some buy a Subaru and some an Audi, when they both have all wheel drive and get to the store...
I'm not at all worked up.:cool:. It's a great thing about the Internet, you can just close your browser and it all goes away.:)
Are you refering to the Benchmark HGC? If so, it's a very decent bit of equipment. It measures well and sounded good to my ears. The problem with it for me is, it does a lot of things that I just wouldn't make use of any more and of course you are paying for that extra functionality. Basically I just want a headphone amp that will drive my headphones and reproduce as closely as possible the signal it gets fed.
My current headphone amp which I built does drive both pairs of headphones I have with ease, but with regard to fidelity; well it's a tube amp and a bit of an effects box.
 
OP
Shadrach

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Because whoever bought it enjoyed it more. It doesn't have to sound better in a DBT or measure better on a scope to justify the cost. It just has to make sense to the person who uses it.
If a big case and nice looking components and a higher price makes somebody think they bought quality then that's pretty important because they are the people who are going to use it. Don't discount emotional and visual appeal. It's all part of the package. You don't listen with your ears. You listen with your brain.
An interesting point and one I have some sympathy with.
I've got to the point where if it doesn't sound better in a DBT then I question the point of buying it. This doesn't necessarily mean I won't buy because like many, I like what I consider to be 'nice' things. However, I'm an engineer and in the end I'm mostly interested in performance in preference to looks. I buy art because the looks appeal to me. I buy tools because they perform well. This is what I find interesting about 'High Fidelity' sound reproduction. Many say they are interested in High Fidelity as the sole criteria in choosing their equipment. But, it seems to me that there are many other factors involved. This shouldn't be a problem but in audio circles often those other factors overshadow the intended and stated aims of the purchase. In some aspects it has as mentioned above got to the point where if it looks good and costs a lot of money it is necessarily better than an item that doesn't.
 

Sancus

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The placebo effect is real. If staring at cool looking speakers and amps makes you think it sounds better, even if it doesn't actually sound better in a DBT, that's still a benefit. It may not be a benefit worth tens of thousands of dollars, but that's up to the purchaser. Nothing wrong with pride of ownership, I have original art that costs 100x as much as a print of the same thing. Behind a frame they look the same and perform the same function, but nobody says original art is dumb.

The issue for me is more the dishonesty of media, subjectivist forums and people recommending these things as genuinely engineered or sounding better when often times they are not, and tricking people into thinking they need these products for music reproduction, which they don't.
 

ryanmh1

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An interesting point and one I have some sympathy with.
I've got to the point where if it doesn't sound better in a DBT then I question the point of buying it. This doesn't necessarily mean I won't buy because like many, I like what I consider to be 'nice' things. However, I'm an engineer and in the end I'm mostly interested in performance in preference to looks. I buy art because the looks appeal to me. I buy tools because they perform well. This is what I find interesting about 'High Fidelity' sound reproduction. Many say they are interested in High Fidelity as the sole criteria in choosing their equipment. But, it seems to me that there are many other factors involved. This shouldn't be a problem but in audio circles often those other factors overshadow the intended and stated aims of the purchase. In some aspects it has as mentioned above got to the point where if it looks good and costs a lot of money it is necessarily better than an item that doesn't.

Well, audio largely moved away from "high fidelity" quite some time ago. Probably the mid-1980s, barring a few stalwarts like NAD.

As soon as we hit around 20Hz to 20kHz .002% THD+N in the source electronics, and probably .01% in the final amplification device, the problem of nearly absolute fidelity to anything 99.99% of the listeners could possibly hear on 99% of source material was an entirely solved problem, assuming nothing else is drastically amiss. Arguably, the problem of audible problems using the standard set of measurements is solved well before that metric.

Audio is sort of like a charity that is formed to solve a particular problem, and does. Now what? No one wants to fold up the tent, go home, and admit the thing is solved, so mission creep sets in. Stereo Review and Audio couldn't keep the doors open declaring that pretty much everything they tested didn't have any audible defects, even if they were probably right. So then you got a decent chunk of technophiles who demanded the best performance, period, even if they couldn't possibly hear it (for years, they bought Brystons and now they buy Benchmarks), and a vast number of audiophiles who just want it to subjectively sound "good"--whatever that means to them. They buy whatever the snake oil audio equipment and high resolution cable salesman convinces them is the hot flavor of the moment. Then, you have a fairly small sliver of people in the middle who have a degree of knowledge and reasonable beliefs about what they can and cannot hear. (Well, I suppose since most people fall into this camp, they probably are the vast majority--but we're talking "enthusiasts" and "audiophiles" here.)

As the magazines which held the torch for reasonable, objective based performance measures all folded up, the "golden ears" came out. Those who think they can hear every thing that is measurable, and those who think the measurements do not matter all and cannot possibly describe what they are hearing. Objectively speaking, both are probably "wrong", since 70% of them are probably listening to equipment which is completely indistinguishable from anything else by even the most highly trained listeners. Then you've got the tube guys and the zero feedback guys. Fidelity isn't their goal at all, and they'll admit that. They like the colorations their gear adds, and a lot of them will admit it. Good for them. At least they're honest, and perhaps they're right that the "fidelity" to what music sounds like is better. But it isn't fidelity to what's on the disc. But at least they're getting something different for their money. The rest of the field is, by and large, people who are either being lied to or are lying to themselves.

Of course, I wouldn't want to discount the possibility I could be completely wrong. Time for an equipment upgrade! ;)

Note: Including the final analog transducer in any of the above would be rather foolhardy. If a significant degree of mystery does still exist somewhere, it's in that miserable device called a speaker.
 

cjfrbw

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Grandiose, insane, outlandishly expensive implementations exist in all hobbies, as well as fashion trends and elected objects d'art that occupy the thin stratospheres of status consciousness. Are they necessary for anything but vanity and too many dollars washing around in the pockets of a few histrionic show offs or insecure obsessive compulsives or flash artists? I don't know. Sometimes, yes, an extremist will serve the hobby by pursuing a dream to it's most distant goals and everybody else can go along for the ride.

I have been up and down the cost scales in my own systems and have come to the conclusion that cost in and of itself is not related to a given set up's sound quality. Care, and attention to detail, experience and evolution are just as, if not more, important.

There was an article by a psychiatrist who treated many audiophiles at one time or another, and he identified the hobby as being a nesting place for some extremely disturbed obsessive compulsive personality disorders. He cited a client who actually committed suicide over his audio concerns, and others who were chronically depressed and anxious over them.

I have also followed a few guys who started out poor, groused about being 'left out' and looked down upon, who acquired some gnosh and then started buying the same status crap that a lot of other guys were pursuing.

I have no grudge against the extremists or the status object vendors or spendy customers at all, they provide me with a niche of valuable entertainment and even sporadic insight. I gave up class consciousness and class struggle in audio a while ago. I only care about results. A lot of expensive systems suck. Some expensive things sound really good.

I mean, who doesn't at some level enjoy it when some crazy rich person does something self indulgent and nutzoid? I am only concerned when they take themselves so seriously that they think the expense and status made the product sound best, and they use the exclusivity to mislead everybody else out of their own vanity.
 

restorer-john

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I understand that one can buy pants that are 35 times more expensive than the jeans I have on now, and they will cover exactly the same amount of my lower body.

Never, solder without pants on. :)
 

cjfrbw

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Soldered nuts are a terrible thing to behold.
 

LightninBoy

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There has been a trend in this "hobby" for many years now, that the more a product costs, the better it sounds. This trend has been powered by a media whose income is mainly derived from it's advertiser base. The company making big expensive high margin gear can afford to pay for 1 an 2 full page color ad's in the print media and bigger size ad's on web media. It's been a vicious circle for near 3 decades now with little end in sight.
Throw in the luxury appeal of beautiful machined aluminum cabinet like the Pass and you can begin to understand the analogy of the Rolex vs Timex.
High Fidelity is a MATURE TECHNOLOGY. Everything behind the loudspeaker can be obtained in a fully transparent box for little cost.

To quote once more from my trusted source Peter Aczel
"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information? It wasn’t always so. Between the birth of “high fidelity,” circa 1947, and the early 1970s, what the engineers said was accepted by that generation of hi-fi enthusiasts as the truth. Then, as the ’70s decade grew older, the self-appointed experts without any scientific credentials started to crawl out of the woodwork. For a while they did not overpower the educated technologists but by the early ’80s they did, with the subjective “golden-ear” audio magazines as their chief line of communication. I remember pleading with some of the most brilliant academic and industrial brains in audio to fight against all the nonsense, to speak up loudly and brutally before the untutored drivel gets out of control, but they just laughed, dismissing the “flat-earthers” and “cultists” with a wave of the hand. Now look at them! Talk to the know-it-all young salesman in the high-end audio salon, read the catalogs of Audio Advisor, Music Direct, or any other high-end merchant, read any of the golden-ear audio magazines, check out the subjective audio websites—and weep. The witch doctors have taken over. "

I think this post captures the OP's point the best. Sure there will always be some folks that buy the overpriced gear for reasons other than pure performance - but when the hobby is dominated by this mentality, then the hobby suffers for it.

All you need to do is look at the world of video to see the contrast. Look at a professional review of a projector and *most* of them have detailed measurements. In room professional calibration to established guidelines is common. There is little argument about whether measurements really reflect what is seen. Ironically, there is a an analog (pun intended) to the tube/LP crowd - and that is the preference most have to watching movies in 24fps while eschewing higher rates due to the "soap opera" effect. So sure - you will find your subjectivist corners in video - but they haven't taken over. And that hobby is healthier for it.
 

VMAT4

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I had a friend and retailer of audio equipment confide to me in the late '80s that most of the money spent in his store came from Doctors, lawyers, and as he said, "Indian Chiefs". These folks were mostly looking to be complimented by their other affluent "audiophile" friends on their purchases. In his opinion most audiophiles didn't have the money for what they desired so very much.

I'm guessing a pass labs headphone amp or a Boulder 2108 phono pre amp is really just a show piece, bling, a display of wealth and maybe even a lack of common sense.

Today, if one looks hard enough, great fidelity can be found in low and mid priced sources and amplification. Only speakers need be expensive and maybe not always. I find the most elusive component is a great listening room or space.
 

HammerSandwich

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I've got to the point where if it doesn't sound better in a DBT then I question the point of buying it.
Which puts you in a tiny minority of buyers. Perhaps the fundamental answer is that consumers' ignorance + opportunist sellers + status quo media = a diseased market. Did we really need 3 pages to get that?

I had a friend and retailer of audio equipment confide to me in the late '80s that most of the money spent in his store came from Doctors, lawyers, and as he said, "Indian Chiefs". These folks were mostly looking to be complimented by their other affluent "audiophile" friends on their purchases.
Sounds accurate.

As I've become more knowledgeable, I've been able to get better results for less money. And when I brag about my purchases, my friends hear about how cheap they were. The engineers, in particular, like this.

OTOH, a Porsche sales manager showed me the 918's options a few years ago. Premium paint was $60k extra! I said something like, "Who the hell would order that instead of a Boxster daily driver?" "Every single buyer."
 

suttondesign

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I offer the following as a thesis, not a positive assertion.

Thesis: As the disparity in wealth in developed countries continues to increase, the market for exorbitantly-priced trinkets will presumably continue and even increase for those persons who can throw money around. When the audio hobby began after WWII, the hobbyists were ordinary people building things or, somewhat later, buying things with a reasonable value equation based largely on utility and functionality. But the post-war consensus now having largely disappeared, we're back to the 1850's or 1910, where there are different markets for different classes, and the working poor buy used goods or buy on credit while the very wealthy buy bling of all kinds. [In this connection, it's nice to point out that people (like me) still build their own speakers, albeit with some ready-made crossovers and things. They certainly don't look like a million bucks, but they perform like champs. I think there's an enthusiast amp community too, and for the same reason -- who cares what an amp looks like?]

Comment: I don't go to Aston Martin or even BMW or Porsche dealers to look at cars because why bother? I'll never be able to afford one (as a practical matter, if I intend to have a retirement income and help my kids go to college). I look at Hondas and Toyotas, maybe Subaru when I'm feeling saucy. But I still can't seem to part with my two 10-year-old RAV4's because they've got hot V-6's, leather seats, and never break -- talk about good performance for the dollar!

As for audio, my regret is not that I can't buy the expensive stuff but that the ultra-high-end has taken over the press, leaving me nothing worth reading when sitting down to a hand-carved pipe before the fire in my velvet quilted smoking jacket. But this site and a select few others are proof that motivated people are starting to build an interwebs presence for ordinary hobbyists. That's really cool.
 

Sal1950

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So sure - you will find your subjectivist corners in video - but they haven't taken over. And that hobby is healthier for it.
Good post and very true. For the most part video reviews have a heavily objective slant with measurements holding sway over panel and projector video evaluations.. Hope it stays that way ----------------
 

PierreV

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Why don't we read the same adoration of whoever is responsible for the design of the jds amp? I can't even find out who it is!

That one, unlike the cost issue, is very easy to answer.

The huge respect many people have for Mr. Pass is not because his company sells a headphone amplifier, it is for his history. Google "Threshold Stasis Pass Nakamichi" and read what you find, for a start. That's on the technical side. On the human side, Mr. Pass appears to be an honest, open person, making honest claims, delivering expensive but well-designed products, sharing information. Occasionally, he designs and sells inherently flawed devices while, at the same time, explaining why they are flawed... Interesting character and people usually like interesting characters.

OTOH, the good performings current cheap designs are essentially perfectly arranged and implemented set of Lego bricks laid out according to a fairly well-documented layout. This definitely deserves some credit, especially given the fact there are also more expensive less than perfectly implemented versions of the same set of Lego bricks. But the amazing cost vs performance devices we see today are one of the byproducts of all the advances that made your smartphone possible. Lots of people in many fields have contributed.

The cost question issue is equivalent to "why do people still buy expensive fountain pens when you can have ten ballpoints for much less?"

In a way, Pass amplifiers are today's or tomorrow's fountain pens. People are arguing a bit about that exact timing issue these days, but everyone knows how the story ends...
 

Sal1950

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Some of the best of the "good ole days" were the times when Nelson Pass was still depending on income from designing for outside firms like the amps for Adcom. Classic times.
 

DuxServit

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This is what’s called the “free market” — no one is forced to buy any audio equipment of any quality/price ;)

Same is true for art work, clothing, etc.
 

Sal1950

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andreasmaaan

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I just had to google for the fix to an HDMI issue on my dad’s TV/laptop and came across this quote on a video forum:

C4BC250C-9F94-4D5D-9AC5-F6518AD490A4.jpeg


I don’t know enough about this topic to know what’s true (although ofc I suspect it’s what “jobeard” says). But interesting to see parallel debates going on in that world.
 

Sal1950

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I just had to google for the fix to an HDMI issue on my dad’s TV/laptop and came across this quote on a video forum:

View attachment 22913

I don’t know enough about this topic to know what’s true (although ofc I suspect it’s what “jobeard” says). But interesting to see parallel debates going on in that world.
in HDMI there are different std. What will pass a std def video SIG won,t pass a UHF 4k. But they do all sound the same. Lol
 
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