Is there any budget DAC for DSD1024?

[DVDdoug]

Blind ABX tests can be VERY humbling.

Most audiophiles would be surprised how hard is to hear the difference between a high resolution (or DSD) original and a good-quality MP3 made from that file! ...If they can reliably hear a difference at all. It's more unlikely to hear a difference with a copy down-sampled to "CD quality".

 

[sunjam]

Have you tried comparing level matched, blind and statistically relevant?

If not, I highly suggest you give it a try. You could save yourself a hell of a lot of effort - and probably storage space - if you do.

My test was simple, statistically unrelevant. It didn't go through any rigorous scientific testing methodology like the researchers would like to do in the professional manner (e.g. https://www.simplypsychology.org/research-methods.html). I just found out that to me it sounds significantly better with DSD upsampling with HQPlayer. Period.

I have no plan to employ any rigorous testing methodology in my hobby. I'd let the experts to do it for me . Listening to music should be fun and relaxing. Anything (especially free to try) could improve the fun factors, I would defintely more than happy to try. Of couse, milages may vary. Enjoy

note: btw, the upsampling is done on a real time basis, no extra storage space is needed.

 

[dlovesmusic]

Higher rate DSD allows quantization noise to be moved further out to higher frequencies. Type and order of the modulator can be used to push out more or less of the quantization noise from audible range to ultrasonic. Latest Multitone gives you the choice of modulator order, from 4 to 7, with 6 being the default (as it always was).

Yes, and for people interested in conducting a blind test, its only a few clicks away to download the fully functional free trial program.

The terms are pretty generous as it allows you to play music for 30 minutes. After the 30 minutes, you just have to close the program and restart and you get another 30 minutes to try it.

As for level matched blind testing, the program lets you switch filters, modulator, and room correction convolution settings on the fly, by a press of a button, which only takes a a fraction of a second for the switch.

Its a toggle menu. Lets say you start off with a 5th order modulator, you can switch from a 5th order modulator to a 7th order modulator or you can try to trick the tester and just click on the 5th order modulator again, it will still appear to make a switch.

I am not stating my opinion on the matter but I simply fail to see why this is so much of a hassle for some to even spend a few minutes and try it rather than asking others for proof and have you tried blind testing... It would be a fun exercise and good use of the time for the spirit of science to try it for yourself. I know Archimago always include a section in his dacs review for dsd performance and use of hqplayer even though as he stated :"Upsampling PCM to DSD128+ can be done these days in realtime with software like HQPlayer but IMO the benefits are really not significant compared to DSP in the form of digital room correction or other processes like crosstalk cancellation for example"

 

[pkane]

Yes, and for people interested in conducting a blind test, its only a few clicks away to download the fully functional free trial program.

The terms are pretty generous as it allows you to play music for 30 minutes. After the 30 minutes, you just have to close the program and restart and you get another 30 minutes to try it.

As for level matched blind testing, the program lets you switch filters, modulator, and room correction convolution settings on the fly, by a press of a button, which only takes a a fraction of a second for the switch.

Its a toggle menu. Lets say you start off with a 5th order modulator, you can switch from a 5th order modulator to a 7th order modulator or you can try to trick the tester and just click on the 5th order modulator again, it will still appear to make a switch.

I am not stating my opinion on the matter but I simply fail to see why this is so much of a hassle for some to even spend a few minutes and try it rather than asking others for proof and have you tried blind testing... It would be a fun exercise and good use of the time for the spirit of science to try it for yourself. I know Archimago always include a section in his dacs review for dsd performance and use of hqplayer even though as he stated :"Upsampling PCM to DSD128+ can be done these days in realtime with software like HQPlayer but IMO the benefits are really not significant compared to DSP in the form of digital room correction or other processes like crosstalk cancellation for example"

My results for DSD upsampling using HQPlayer were with a previous version: I liked upsampling to DSD512 and thought it was much better, more natural sound, than PCM (this was with a Holo Spring DAC). I then set up a blind test, where each time I started HQP it would switch between DSD or PCM randomly, and record the choice but not tell me. I then spent some weeks trying to hear which sounded better to me. Turned out it was pretty much randomly split, and I couldn't tell the difference between them in a blind test that was so obvious in a sighted A/B one.

 

[sunjam]

Yes, and for people interested in conducting a blind test, its only a few clicks away to download the fully functional free trial program.

The terms are pretty generous as it allows you to play music for 30 minutes. After the 30 minutes, you just have to close the program and restart and you get another 30 minutes to try it.

As for level matched blind testing, the program lets you switch filters, modulator, and room correction convolution settings on the fly, by a press of a button, which only takes a a fraction of a second for the switch.

Its a toggle menu. Lets say you start off with a 5th order modulator, you can switch from a 5th order modulator to a 7th order modulator or you can try to trick the tester and just click on the 5th order modulator again, it will still appear to make a switch.

I am not stating my opinion on the matter but I simply fail to see why this is so much of a hassle for some to even spend a few minutes and try it rather than asking others for proof and have you tried blind testing... It would be a fun exercise and good use of the time for the spirit of science to try it for yourself. I know Archimago always include a section in his dacs review for dsd performance and use of hqplayer even though as he stated :"Upsampling PCM to DSD128+ can be done these days in realtime with software like HQPlayer but IMO the benefits are really not significant compared to DSP in the form of digital room correction or other processes like crosstalk cancellation for example"

DSP is another deep topics. It is at a totally different level in terms of sound correction. It could change the sound very significantly (could be in the right or wrong directions).

Based on my very own experience, upsampling is more like a less than 0.1% (or even less) change to the sound but DSP could easily change a few % to the sound. (Probably because I don't know how to play with DSP...)

So, for me, I would stay with upsampling and playing with tiny changes for now (as I can easily make the music sound bad with DSP... I mean really bad, lol )

 

[sunjam]

My results for DSD upsampling using HQPlayer were with a previous version: I liked upsampling to DSD512 and thought it was much better, more natural sound, than PCM (this was with a Holo Spring DAC). I then set up a blind test, where each time I started HQP it would switch between DSD or PCM randomly, and record the choice but not tell me. I then spent some weeks trying to hear which sounded better to me. Turned out it was pretty much randomly split, and I couldn't tell the difference between them in a blind test that was so obvious in a sighted A/B one.

Sorry I am a bit confused... you did comparison between upsampled DSD and upsampled PCM? or upsampled DSD vs original PCM (e.g. 44.1k)?

 

[pkane]

Sorry I am a bit confused... you did comparison between upsampled DSD and upsampled PCM? or upsampled DSD vs original PCM (e.g. 44.1k)?

Yes. Comparison between upsampled and recorded PCM rates and DSD. All PCM needs to be upsampled to DSD.

 

[sunjam]

Yes. Comparison between upsampled and recorded PCM rates and DSD. All PCM needs to be upsampled to DSD.

So, in that case, it was a test between DSD vs PCM (at similar upsampled rate, i.e. DSD512 vs 768k) instead of DSD512 vs PCM44.1. Correct?

If that's correct, just wondering did you try any blind test between upsampled vs non-upsampled music?

For me, I didn't do any DSD512 vs 768k comparison (as I don't have any DAC that supports DSD512). However, I like DSD256 better than 384k (again, I didn't do any blind test).

 

[pkane]

So, in that case, it was a test between DSD vs PCM (at similar upsampled rate, i.e. DSD512 vs 768k) instead of DSD512 vs PCM44.1. Correct?

If that's correct, just wondering did you try any blind test between upsampled vs non-upsampled music?

For me, I didn't do any DSD512 vs 768k comparison (as I don't have any DAC that supports DSD512). However, I like DSD256 better than 384k (again, I didn't do any blind test).

As I said, PCM was test with both, upsampled and 'as recorded'. I did both.

 

[pkane]

For me, I didn't do any DSD512 vs 768k comparison (as I don't have any DAC that supports DSD512). However, I like DSD256 better than 384k (again, I didn't do any blind test).

I suggest you try testing blind. It really is a revelation how much of what you hear is influenced by the knowledge of which device is playing.

 

[dlovesmusic]

A bit off topic from DSD upsampling.

Actually I had my wife used her iphone vnc into hqplayer client app, played "the American Dream is killing me" from Green Day, at DSD256x48, 7EC SUPER modulator, and switched between the mp filter and lp filter (or switch to the same filter to trick me) every 10 seconds or so 10 times within the track and I would just write down between LP and MP. Run the same test 3 times. I actually did pretty well getting 7, 8, 8 out of 10 in 3 trials...

Ran the same test for my wife and she did slightly better than me 8, 8, 9 out of 10

I know nothing scientific about it, just for the fun really

 

[Gradius]

You cannot hear the difference between DSD (1x) and 96kHz @ 24-bit (PCM/WAV). The later is better anyway.

So WHY would you want DSD1024 ?!

 

[JSmith]

JSmith

 

[sunjam]

You cannot hear the difference between DSD (1x) and 96kHz @ 24-bit (PCM/WAV). The later is better anyway.

So WHY would you want DSD1024 ?!

I am using HQPlayer to upsample 44.1k PCM to DSD256. I can hear the difference and DSD256 is better.
I did tried to use HQPlayer to upsample the same 44.1k PCM to 384/768k PCM but I prefer DSD256.

Yes, I agree that DSD64 is similar to 96/24.

Given my experience with DSD256, I would like to try out DSD1024 to see if it is much better than DSD256.

 

[dlovesmusic]

I am using HQPlayer to upsample 44.1k PCM to DSD256. I can hear the difference and DSD256 is better.
I did tried to use HQPlayer to upsample the same 44.1k PCM to 384/768k PCM but I prefer DSD256.

Yes, I agree that DSD64 is similar to 96/24.

Given my experience with DSD256, I would like to try out DSD1024 to see if it is much better than DSD256.

You will be disappointed. Dsd1024 is measured quite a bit worse in noise floor and distortion compared to dsd256 and it’s audible too, even tho there are a few ppl out there who are willing to spend $2-3k on a pc to run dsd1024 in demanding filters and modulators

 

[JSmith]

I can hear the difference and DSD256 is better.

Sorry, but such unsubstantiated and vague claims of this nature don't fly here at ASR.


JSmith

 

[sunjam]

You will be disappointed. Dsd1024 is measured quite a bit worse in noise floor and distortion compared to dsd256 and it’s audible too, even tho there are a few ppl out there who are willing to spend $2-3k on a pc to run dsd1024 in demanding filters and modulators

Thanks for your feedback and I kind of give up the idea of DSD1024 (at least for now).

BTW, I just noticed that the new ESS chip (9039Q2M) does support DSD1024. So far, it looks like no DACs using this chip support DSD1024 yet but I believe down the road, there will be budget DACs using this chip to support DSD1024.

As most of the existing DSD1024 DACs are not chip based, not sure if the chip based solution will give a better measurement for DSD1024. Let's see

 

[Lupin]

What does this achieve?


JSmith

Isn't that obvious... up sampling to DSD will cause a DSD indicator and/or a "special" color LED to light up on the DAC which just by looking at that will increase the sound quality multiple times, like night and day difference.

 

[sunjam]

Isn't that obvious... up sampling to DSD will cause a DSD indicator and/or a "special" color LED to light up on the DAC which just by looking at that will increase the sound quality multiple times, like night and day difference.

Same as MQA blue dot

 

[Gerardo61]

f I get a AKM DAC that supports DSD512 and DSD direct, would that make a difference when compared with what I have right now?

Hi, I also thought the AKM chips support DSD direct. Recent tests done by Jussi (Signalyst) have shown that both ESS and AKM do not support direct DSD.
Only Holo Cyan 2 has a double raid (PCM and DSD) which allows you to have direct DSD without using a chip