Is the Performance of a DAC Linked toCost?

[Mitch]

I have been seeking advice from the experts on the RME Forum about power supplies for the RME Pro which has been most interesting.

Now I have a more general question about powering dacs and the cost/benefit equation of elaborate internal power stages which is probably more appropriate for this forum. The measurements have proven that DACs such as the RME, and others at the top end of the league table are able to accurately reproduce the digital input in analog form. Some makes have sophisticated, and expensive, internal power sections with huge and heavy components, and others do not, yet output measurements are near identical. How is this possible? A layman, such as me, might conclude that those big, shielded power stages are not required. In other words, if 2 DACs have similar DSP producing similar measurements with noise and jitter etc well below audible threshold, yet one has a power stage that doubles the cost of the unit, should we not always opt for the cheaper model, functionally and ascetics apart. OR, is there another factor, other than the measurements that might make the more expensive dac sound better, excluding any downstream equipment? I am just interested in what the dac produces, as Armin says, what the designer does inside the box should not concern us, it is only the end result in which we are interested? I quote a popular reviewer on Utube: ‘ the RME is a great sounding dac, but not as good of course than dac …. at twice the price, as you would expect’. Well is that what we should expect? What I have learned from this excellent site is that maybe we should not. But am I correct?

Ultimately this decision affects buying choices. I want a new dac, and I am prepared to spend to get a high performance one, but on the other hand, I do not want to spend on what is not necessary! I am very attracted by the RME Pro, and it is at least half the price of my other contenders, some of which have slightly worse measurements. But am I missing something? Is the old adage of ‘you need to double the price you pay for a component to get noticeably better performance’ correct - it is a revalation to me, after 50 years or buying hi fi, that it might not be. I have found through my own blind testing that I cannot tell the difference between good quality professional interconnects and high end audiophile cables - hence I use the far cheaper professional products. From what I have learned so far, the same may well apply to DACs such as the RME as well??

An obvious example of what I mean would be to compare the 2 DACs at the very top of the league table: the Mola Mola and the Topping. They have near identical performance, yet vastly different prices. If any one was in the fortunate position to have access to both, and could carry out a proper blind test that was repeatable, what would be the result in terms of sound quality (ignoring things like ascetics and functionality). For instance if one was found to be better than the other, surely we must ask why, when they have the same measured performance. If, on the other hand, they were the same, what about all the pundits who go on endlessly about sound stage depth etc, etc? Would they then be out of business?

Sorry for this rambling post, but after a long time in this hobby I may be at a crossroads, mainly because of the compelling arguments of Armin. I just hope I have interpreted those arguments correctly.
Thanks, Mitch

 

[fpitas]

The short answer is, if they have SINAD beyond about 80dB, flat frequency response etc then human ears cannot tell them apart. There's a giant thread:

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[fpitas]

Obviously, one DAC might have superior build quality, features you need, or even a prettier case.

 

[Mitch]

True, but for this I am just concerned about the SQ. thank for the link to the relevant thread, I could not find it. As I get more used to the forum I hope my ‘navigation’ will improve.

 

[fpitas]

There's a big list of DACs arranged by SINAD around here somewhere.

 

[Mitch]

There's a big list of DACs arranged by SINAD around here somewhere.

Yes, that is the ‘league table’ I refer to, and the Mola Mola and topping are at the top. Thanks

 

[BDWoody]

If any one was in the fortunate position to have access to both, and could carry out a proper blind test that was repeatable, what would be the result in terms of sound quality (ignoring things like ascetics and functionality).

I would bet every dime @AdamG247 has that no difference would be identified.

If, on the other hand, they were the same, what about all the pundits who go on endlessly about sound stage depth etc, etc? Would they then be out of business?

If you think of them as salesmen, does that help? They run infomercials...

You are definitely on the right track.

 

[delta76]

Here is a good start https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h&t=electronicsall&psearch=DAC&psearchtype=OR
we have plenty of low cost high performance DACs. From 100$ you can't hear difference, it's now your choice of look, build quality and support

 

[voodooless]

Here is a good start https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h&t=electronicsall&psearch=DAC&psearchtype=OR
we have plenty of low cost high performance DACs. From 100$ you can't hear difference, it's now your choice of look, build quality and support

Arguably you can lower that price by another 10x, if you accept a few dB lower SINAD and can live with the lower output voltage:

Review: Apple vs Google USB-C Headphone Adapters

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Apple's USB-C adapter to the current and last version of Google Pixel headphone adapters. The Apple adapter costs just $9 including one day shipping for free. The Google dongle costs $12. Not that any of these are large by any stretch...

www.audiosciencereview.com

$9 dollar DAC

 

[fpitas]

It's true that some DACs have vastly superior headphone drive. That may matter if you have insensitive headphones.

 

[AdamG]

I would bet every dime @AdamG247 has that no difference would be identified.



If you think of them as salesmen, does that help? They run infomercials...

You are definitely on the right track.

While I have not conducted a true double blind test that would hold up to scrutiny. I at one time had access to 3 DAC’s in my audio chain. 2 dedicated DAC’s and a Streaming DAC combo. I wanted very much, to be able to hear any difference between them. The DAC ranged from $100 to $700 range. So nothing crazy expensive mind you. I set them up on different inputs and switched them blindly between the 3 while playing music I am familiar and have listened to since I was a youngster. I absolutely could not detect or determine any sonic differences between the 3. So pick a DAC that has the features you want and a price you are willing to pay and be satisfied that it probably won’t get any better. If it can get better you won’t be able to hear the difference. Starting to realize that the weakest link in this game, may be our own Ears and hearing range. Best of luck to you.

 

[Mnyb]

A product is not only about sound quality metrics . It's build quality features and the local sales and service representation !

 

[boxerfan88]

Like choosing between Corolla GR & Cayman.

Both are sports car, both go fast, both handles well. But they are built differently.

Same dilemma

 

[Mitch]

A product is not only about sound quality metrics . It's build quality features and the local sales and service representation !

Yes, clearly there are many factors that come into play when deciding which one, but in this instance I am only concerned with the relative sound quality, and in particular the need for, or otherwise, of expensive internal power stages. I have not had chance yet to trawl through the large thread that was kindly brought to my attention - but I will this evening. But what I am getting so far from this thread, and the one on the RME forum is that beyond a critical SINAD there is indeed no difference. So at this early stage of my investigation, I might conclude that the beautiful engineering that brands such as Denafrips and Auralic have put into the latest models from the top of their ranges are, in fact, just electronic works of art that make no practical difference to the sound, but I am not there yet.
Thank you all for your interest
Mitch

 

[AdamG]

that make no practical difference to the sound,

Yep. After the hundred dollar Schiit DAC. You are paying for features, ascetics, and brand name stuff. Nothing to do with sound performance. We just give you the facts and let you decide what you choose to pay for.

 

[Joe Smith]

I think in terms of SQ, there are plenty of $100-150 DACs that get the job done perfectly, and beyond that, you are basically paying for user aesthetics and features. I'm speaking here of standalone DACs such as the Modi and Atom+. The RME devices look beautiful and I'm sure they are enjoyable to use - they are out of my comfortable budget zone.

 

[Mitch]

Yep. After the hundred dollar Schiit DAC. You are paying for features, ascetics, and brand name stuff. Nothing to do with sound performance. We just give you the facts and let you decide what you choose to pay for.

Thank you. I am not trying to get opinions on which actual dac to buy, and I am lucky that, within reason, I am not too bothered about how much I pay; however, I do not want to waste money either. My main interest here is to get views on why a manufacturer would go to huge effort to develop a highly sophisticated and consequently expensive power stage in their dacs, if exactly the same performance could be achieved by a dac that did not have such a feature. I accept that if the box has other functions as well a da conversion other factors may come into play, but for this discussion let’s assume we are only talking about pure dac function.

 

[blueone]

Yep. After the hundred dollar Schiit DAC. You are paying for features, ascetics, and brand name stuff. Nothing to do with sound performance. We just give you the facts and let you decide what you choose to pay for.

For me there's more to it when choosing a DAC. A few examples:

- Reliability. Some electronics last 20 years or more, many don't last even a few years.
- Ability to directly drive power amplifiers to high power levels, if you use DACs that way.
- Quality and ease of use of the volume control function, unless you use it to feed a preamp.
- Ditto for the remote control. Some electronics have poor remote control solutions that don't allow fine-grained volume control.
- On-off thumps and noises. Not allowed in my system. (Some expensive electronics do this too, so it's not necessarily price-dependent).
- Wall warts. I despise wall wart power supplies, but that's just me.

 

[Marc v E]

Imo the only things that really matter in a dac (having owned quite a few over the years) is:

*Enough input connections, especially multiple spdif. Hdmi would be great, but sadly only one or two dacs have them.

*Ease of use. Is it easy to operate? Does it have a nice remote with a good range?

*And last but certainly not least, the possibility to apply eq. This is imo the feature that seperates the worthy dacs from the rest. The reason is your speakers will sound different in a different room; eq will help a lot to make it closer to ideal and closer to your liking.

Eq makes the rme and the minidsp flex the only dacs that make a real difference in sound quality to me. The rme is a superb dac but limited to 5 bands of equalisation. It also has dynamic eq option (applying more bass when lower spl, less when higher spl), which I would probably like very much, given my current speakers have that too.
(I recently bought the minidsp flex eight dac for eq purposes.)

If you only listen to digital music and happen to have Roon, you already have the possibility to eq in Roon. Then it doesn't really matter anymore which dac you choose. I would still buy rme or benchmark but that's more about customer service and pride of ownership than anything else, to be honest.

 

[BlackTalon]

My main interest here is to get views on why a manufacturer would go to huge effort to develop a highly sophisticated and consequently expensive power stage in their dacs, if exactly the same performance could be achieved by a dac that did not have such a feature.

My view is in most cases the manufacturer did not, in fact, develop a highly sophisticated power stage, but they want potential buyers to a) believe they did, and b) pay a hefty premium for that belief.