Is Dithering Ever Needed?

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Can anyone hear the difference between dithered and un dithered audio under normal listening conditions?

Can anyone hear the difference between different dithering / noise shaping types?

I’m wondering if dithering is ever needed at all.

 

[Doodski]

There is much dithering discussion on ASR. Not sure if any of this helps but here's some search results.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

There is much dithering discussion on ASR. Not sure if any of this helps but here's some search results.

Thank you, but I can’t see any that answer my question.

 

[julian_hughes]

Can anyone hear the difference between dithered and un dithered audio under normal listening conditions?

Can anyone hear the difference between different dithering / noise shaping types?

I’m wondering if dithering is ever needed at all.

It's only really needed when changing the sample rate and bit depth i.e. converting 96kHz 24-bit audio (for example) to 44.1kHz 16-bit audio. Typically it's not needed for normal playback and you won't be able to hear a difference. If you have a player which downsamples audio if it's in formats unsupported by the player then it might be useful. Maybe. Perhaps. Probably measurable but inaudible. Some players only support 44.1 and 48kHz 16-bit for example, or some might convert DSD to PCM. It's not something to be concerned about with playback devices or audio on PC.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

It's only really needed when changing the sample rate and bit depth i.e. converting 96kHz 24-bit audio (for example) to 44.1kHz 16-bit audio. Typically it's not needed for normal playback and you won't be able to hear a difference. If you have a player which downsamples audio if it's in formats unsupported by the player then it might be useful. Maybe. Perhaps. Probably measurable but inaudible. Some players only support 44.1 and 48kHz 16-bit for example, or some might convert DSD to PCM. It's not something to be concerned about with playback devices or audio on PC.

I know what it is and I know why and when to use it. I want to know if it’s actually audible. If it’s not, I’ll stop caring about it totally.

 

[julian_hughes]

If you can hear a difference then use it. If not, not. How to tell if something is audible to you: listen.

 

[Frgirard]

I know what it is and I know why and when to use it. I want to know if it’s actually audible. If it’s not, I’ll stop caring about it totally.

You can stop.

 

[solderdude]

When the signal is very low in amplitude (say -40dB) and you only have 16 bit depth you might hear a difference.
There are different types of dither. It is all about increased waveform fidelity at the expensive of a certain type of very low level noise.
So when you care about waveform fidelity going from higher to lower bit depths simply use it.
It wasn't invented for nothing but should be used in the proper way.

 

[Berwhale]

Knock yourself out... https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/hear-effects-dithering/

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Knock yourself out... https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/hear-effects-dithering/

These aren’t real life tests. I don’t normalise a -40dB signal before listening to it.

We’re always desperate for ABX results for lossy codecs and new codecs (cough MQA), yet we seem to accept that we *must* dither after certain operations.

I can’t hear a difference with dithered / undithered, never mind different noise shaping. I don’t think anyone can, and it’s snake oil that we’re all partial to.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

If you can hear a difference then use it. If not, not. How to tell if something is audible to you: listen.

I’m saying no one can.

 

[Lambda]

. I want to know if it’s actually audible. If it’s not, I’ll stop caring about it totally.

Then why don’t you test it yourself?
We don’t know what

normal listening conditions?

Means to you and we don’t know how good your hearing is.
If you have to ask Chances are you can’t hear a difference.

With a low recording level and 16bit Some can hear the difference between ditherer and not dithering.

But with 24Bit and 96Khz files you don’t have to worry about dither or noise shaping.

 

[solderdude]

I can’t hear a difference with dithered / undithered, never mind different noise shaping. I don’t think anyone can, and it’s snake oil that we’re all partial to.

Then its all good.

Snake-oil is something that doesn't actually do something. Dither certainly does. Something isn't snake-oil because it is below audible levels.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Then its all good.

Snake-oil implies that it something that doesn't actually do something. It certainly does. Something isn't snake-oil because it is below audible levels.

Doesn’t do something “audible”. There’s a number of ways we can increase quality beyond audiblity. Dithering to me is no different to the 192kHz BS.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Then why don’t you test it yourself?
We don’t know what

Means to you and we don’t know how good your hearing is.
If you have to ask Chances are you can’t hear a difference.

With a low recording level and 16bit Some can hear the difference between ditherer and not dithering.

But with 24Bit and 96Khz files you don’t have to worry about dither or noise shaping.

As I said. I can’t hear a difference, I don’t think anyone can. Let’s see some ABX.

 

[solderdude]

Doesn’t do something “audible”.

Not the proper definition of snake-oil.

When you are taking an aspirine when you are not sick does it suddenly become snake-oil because it doesn't do something at that moment ?

Snake-oil does nothing. Dither actually improves signal fidelity of small signals which can be proven easily.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Not the proper definition of snake-oil.

When you are taking an aspirine when you are not sick does it suddenly become snake-oil.

Snake-oil does nothing.

Snake oil does not increase audio quality, in our discussion. Snake oil is a product that does not contain value. Dither does not contain value as it does not improve the audible signal. ABX and prove me wrong.

I don’t care about numbers, I care about what can be heard. We’d all be using hi res, 32bit files if we use your logic.

 

[solderdude]

Snake oil does not increase audio quality, in our discussion.

No it is just below audible thresholds for most recordings. That doesn't mean it is snake-oil. It is a scientific tool that has proven effectiveness.

I don’t care about numbers, I care about what can be heard. We’d all be using hi res, 32bit files if we use your logic.

No, because in practice the limit is around 22 bits. That said for archival purposes 24 bit dithered is not necessarily snake-oil.
Just like anything higher than 96kHz is also overkill.

Not snake-oil but overkill praying on gullible folks believing their hearing is superior.
Looks like you are putting the wrong kind of logic in my mouth.

 

[Lambda]

As o said. I can’t hear a difference, I don’t think anyone can. Let’s see some ABX.

I did some tests long time a ago to hear the difference between Dithering export options. I can hear the Difference.
But my testing maybe don’t qualifiy as your "normal listening conditions".

At what point do you consider Noise low enough?
All the noise in your system adds up. If you can make your system lower noise / better at no cost by just using the proper Export option. Why not?

Snake oil does not increase audio quality,

It dose it.
You not noticing listening casually is not the same.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

I did some tests long time a ago to hear the difference between Dithering export options. I can hear the Difference.
But my testing maybe don’t qualifiy as your "normal listening conditions".

At what point do you consider Noise low enough?
All the noise in your system adds up. If you can make your system lower noise / better at no cost by just using the proper Export option. Why not?



It dose it.
You not noticing listening casually is not the same.

I’d love to see the test setup and results please! Could you post them please?