MRC01
Major Contributor
If so, that's a disappointing trend. If you want unamplified natural sound, try smaller venues, chamber music, or local college or amateur performances.
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Is classical music purely acoustic at live venues?
- Thread starter AudioEnthusiast
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This is something I have touched on a few posts. Difficult to express it. Let's keep to audio. Anyone who has any experience with unamplified live instruments in a concert hall or elsewhere, will tell you how "raw" and often loud these can be. Average SPL can be quite low, say around 75 dB but peaks in a concert hall can be high... I've measured 105 dB in the middle of some halls...
Some recordings manage to retain this "rawness" and sheer dynamics. A stellar exemple is Beethoven: The Symphonies Osmo Vänskä (Conductor), Minnesota Orchestra (Orchestra) by the people at BIS. Beautiful sound ( on an accurate system) as real as it can be but loud it can be if your system is up to it... It is interesting that many audiophiles, especially those of the subjectivist persuasion have come to consider the polite (for the lack of a better word), restricted, bandwidth and loudness limited reproduction as a sign of great sound... No bass, no highs .. all midrange but .."Oh such a sweet midrange and sweet sounding violins" ... Systems with good extensions are often derided by subjectivist... accurate bass reproduction is deemed to be a basshead fixation... dynamic capable systems are HT-type in that universe. Many find it a point of honor to boast their system cannot or wasn't designed to play loud ... Once you hear this you should think of a tube system with a TT and 2-way expensive bookshelf-type speaker cannot reproduce 60 Hz at 95 dB
Many non-audiophiles are underwhelmed by expensive audio systems ... lack of bandwidth and dynamic capabilities are likely the culprit
It ought to be purely acoustic except in certain outdoor venues or venues originally designed for other purposes (e.g., arenas).
The acoustic in the Kennedy Center concert hall is infamously poor. I have both heard a lot of concerts there, and in my musician days, performed in a handful there. It is either the worst- or second worst-sounding concert hall I've ever set foot in.
It is possible that, for The Planets, the conductor decided that one or a few unusual instruments needed to be reinforced so that they could be heard in the Kennedy Center's bad acoustic. This is routinely done in bad concert halls, and I recently observed it at Geffen Hall, f/k/a Avery Fisher Hall. I've never observed it in good halls, such as the Musikverein, the Concertgebouw, or Symphony Hall.
In The Planets, suspect no. 1 for the miked-up instrument would be the celesta. The mic may have picked up reflected sound from other instruments during loud passages, leading to the distortion that you heard. To prevent this problem, sometimes a switch or knob is used by the musician to turn the mic off when the instrument is not being played.
The acoustic in the Kennedy Center concert hall is infamously poor. I have both heard a lot of concerts there, and in my musician days, performed in a handful there. It is either the worst- or second worst-sounding concert hall I've ever set foot in.
It is possible that, for The Planets, the conductor decided that one or a few unusual instruments needed to be reinforced so that they could be heard in the Kennedy Center's bad acoustic. This is routinely done in bad concert halls, and I recently observed it at Geffen Hall, f/k/a Avery Fisher Hall. I've never observed it in good halls, such as the Musikverein, the Concertgebouw, or Symphony Hall.
In The Planets, suspect no. 1 for the miked-up instrument would be the celesta. The mic may have picked up reflected sound from other instruments during loud passages, leading to the distortion that you heard. To prevent this problem, sometimes a switch or knob is used by the musician to turn the mic off when the instrument is not being played.
OP
AudioEnthusiast
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Thank you @Dialectic. I found that very informative, coming from someone who has actually played there.
I hope my post was accurate, and I didn't mean to poo poo performances in the Kennedy Center in case that's how my post came off. I certainly have heard some good concerts there.
OP
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Understood, thanks. I didn’t think you were being derogatory, just being honest. In any case, it’s our only local option for classical concerts. Baltimore is a little too far unless we stay overnight.
Lao Lu
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When the Seattle symphony moved to Benaroya hall from the old opera house I remember them saying that they had to adjust their playing because the acoustics were so good. In the hall's smaller venue I was waiting to hear a solo lute performance and I remember saying to myself that you could "hear" the air in that room....it was poised to carry sound....
I think this is the first time I’ve ever heard Hatch Shell referred to as an outdoor bandstand.
I have fond memories of outdoor concerts while I lived in Boston for a few years. Met wife 1.0 at an outdoor concert on the Esplanade. I don’t blame Boston, Hatch, or the Pops for the eventual necessity of moving on to wife 2.0
The acoustics of the old Opera House at the center were pretty bad. Although I enjoyed evenings when there were Seattle Symphony or Opera performances at the same time as rock concerts at the Mercer Arena. The mix of crowds on the north side of the Seattle Center was genuinely fun.
A little over a year ago, I was on a work trip and was fortunate enough to have Osmo Vänskä as my seat mate on a flight. He was in the middle of recording the Mahler Cycle with Minnesota, and he had a long, gracious conversation with me about the recording process and interpretations of works by Sibelius and others.
I recognized him from album covers and let him know that I had his Sibelius symphony recordings with Lahti in my CD collection. He laughed and said that this was the first time anyone ever knew who he was on a flight.
Robin L
Master Contributor
I remember being in the middle of a circle of Bulgarian Singers [the "Mystery Girls" of "Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares"] at the Berkeley Opera Club some thirty years ago, singing the Bulgarian version of "Happy Birthday". The room clipped.
You sure it wasn't your brain just trying to shut it out?
Robin L
Master Contributor
Surrounded by [to me] ear candy? Try again.You sure it wasn't your brain just trying to shut it out?
What do you mean by the room clipped?
I'm only familiar with how they sound via the crappy tape recordings transferred to CD, they do sound like they could kick out some volume though.
Robin L
Master Contributor
My ears flattened out, the sound I was hearing was the same I associate with amp clipping. There was more voice than room available. Their vocal technique emphasizes volume, comes from calling from one mountainside to another. I've recorded [many times] an Oakland group using a similar technique with a smaller group and a slightly lower peak level. But their dynamic range was similarly wide.
I've experienced similar at rock concerts, using ear plugs reveals its the ears, as what seemed like huge distortion drops to low distortion.
Most classical music is played at around 80 db with 90 db peaks in live concerts. I don't think your ears should distort at those kind of volumes. If they are you should probably consult an audiologist.
And yes, concert halls do use electroaccoustic sound reinforcement. Avery Fisher Hall when it opened actually went to some lengths to market that fact.
The Equalizer
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I don't think I've ever been to a classical concert at Orchestra Hall in Chicago that had sound reinforcement. I did see the Modern Jazz Quartet there, and that had some amplification. Haven't noticed it in smaller halls in the area, either, except for the Kronos Quartet at the Martin Theater (but only for some of the pieces they played, like "Different Trains" by Steve Reich) and one multimedia piece at Pick-Staiger Hall.
At the Lyric Opera of Chicago, I've only heard amplification when the opera has sections of spoken dialogue rather than recitative, like a Gilbert and Sullivan production. Without it, the dialogue would probably be lost to those in the nosebleed seats.
A few years ago I saw an amateur production of "The Pirates of Penzance" in a small theater with rather dead, unremarkable acoustics. At first they forgot to flip on the house sound. Then someone remembered, and the sound got much, much worse. I would have preferred the unremarkable unamplified sound.
At the Lyric Opera of Chicago, I've only heard amplification when the opera has sections of spoken dialogue rather than recitative, like a Gilbert and Sullivan production. Without it, the dialogue would probably be lost to those in the nosebleed seats.
A few years ago I saw an amateur production of "The Pirates of Penzance" in a small theater with rather dead, unremarkable acoustics. At first they forgot to flip on the house sound. Then someone remembered, and the sound got much, much worse. I would have preferred the unremarkable unamplified sound.
