Improving 2 channel music in av setup

[Takahashi]

Equipment:
Marantz slimline AV receiver NR1711
Monitor Audio Radius HD 270 floorstanders
Monitor Audio Radius HD 225 centre
Monitor Audio Radius HD 90 surrounds
BK XL200 Sub
Sonos Port mainly streaming from NAS

Room: 3 x 3.5 mtrs. Suspended wood floor.

So I have a small room where I find the Marantz plenty powerful for watching films. However, I find it lacking somewhat for stereo music as it seems a little dull to my ears. Quite happy with surround music. A few years back I was thinking about adding a separate stereo amp to try and improve things but went off the idea. Now I'm back considering this but not sure which way to go with this.

I would like an amp with tone controls and one which I can hook up to the sub as well as keeping the sub for films. I think the BK XL200 will allow for this.

Also, is it better to connect an integrated to the Marantz and using it to power the front L & R during movies or, and I like this idea, using a Beresford TC-7220 MKI stereo amplifier and speaker switch box. Not sure if that is still available.

Anyway, two questions really.

What stereo integrated would give an upgrade in sound?
What route to take to achieve this?
Don't want to spend anymore than about £800 and I realise the amp must have HT Bypass if going down the Pre Out route, whereas, using a speaker switch will open up further possibilities on the amp front. Also not bothered if amp comes with a streamer.

 

[peng]

What stereo integrated would give an upgrade in sound?

You have the AVR already, an integrated amp won't do anything to the "sound". It is better to either upgrade the AVR, or try hooking up a 200 W 4 ohm rated power amp such as buckeyeamp's NC252MP.

What route to take to achieve this?
Don't want to spend anymore than about £800 and I realise the amp must have HT Bypass if going down the Pre Out route, whereas, using a speaker switch will open up further possibilities on the amp front. Also not bothered if amp comes with a streamer.

I would say a good subwoofer will go a long way in improving the sound especially if you use the $20 MultEQ app to help "dial in" the bass. If you use a power amp, you don't need the HT bypass. Integrated amp really don't much sense in this case unless you want to use it as a separate system to listen to music, but then even if you get a $10,000 integrated amp, at best it can do it to offer lower distortions, that really is not an issue for most people except those with golden ears. Room correction such as Audyssey and Dirac Live will make much more impact on perceived sound quality as the bass range is very important overall, especially in smaller rooms.

Since you mentioned £, may be take a look of the following that are made in Europe:

AUDIOPHONICS MPA-S250NC XLR Power Amplifier Class D Stereo Ncore NC252MP 2x250W 4 Ohm - Audiophonics

The Audiophonics MPA-S252NC XLR is a stereo amplifier based on an amplification module Hypex Ncore NC252MP. This solution is ideal for anyone who wants to have a large power reserve (2x150W) without sacrificing sound reproduction quality.

www.audiophonics.fr

One moment, please...

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome

A quick read through this forum and you will realise that your electronics is rarely the place to start if you want improvements in your sound. Unless you really need more power or there is unacceptable noise when you play stereo then a new amplifier probably won't help.

Upgrading your front speakers might be something to consider. You would need to research that though as it could be expensive. I don't know your speakers (Monitor Audio generally measure well).

One initial thought first.
You have Audyssey EQ with your Marantz. Do you use a different EQ profile for music and for movies? It may be something as simple as checking the EQ settings and the Sub integration. I'm not really familiar with AVRs so can't offer better or more detailed advice - but see what you think.
Even simpler, is your speaker positioning fine for movies, but could do with changing for music? Again, pretty cheap to experiment with.

To recap though - what matters is your speakers in your room - so, speakers or their EQ (or room treatments) before worrying about amps unless its really underpowered (or noisy, or clipping, or broken).

Good luck

 

[DVDdoug]

What is it that you feel needs improvement?

Have you tried changing your bass management to re-route bass to the sub? (If you are configured for "large" front speakers the sub is only being used for the "point one" LFE channel with surround sound.) I'm not saying it will be better one way or the other, I'm suggesting that you experiment.

Personally, I like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting with regular stereo music for some delayed reverb in the rear channels and the "feel" of a larger room. But, that's "hi-fi heresy" since I'm not listening "as intended"

 

[Takahashi]

Thanks for your replies. That's interesting because, although I've not had a stereo amp since the late 1970s, everything I have read over the years has led me to believe that a 2 channel integrated amp will be so much better than an av amp unless you spend a lot of money and opt for an Anthem or Arcam. I see a lot of people seem to use an integrated in their av set up for music listening and that's why I asked the question really.

My existing sub B&K electronics XL200 received some very good reviews a few years back when it was first out - no longer available - and I have it positioned very close to the left speaker, which is not ideal, but it sits on an isolation mat and I'm OK with the sound from it.

I have not run Audyssey on the amp as I thought that caters for movie sound only and I have no problem with that. Dialogue is very clear and the crash, bang wallops sound as they should to me. Maybe I'll have a play around with Audyssey and make some adjustments to tone controls. Pure sound mode sounds lifeless with no sub. My front speakers are not far from the side/back walls toed in to the listening position so I might move them out slightly to see if it makes much difference.

I should also say I have a Graham Slee headphone amp which I use with a pair of Meze classics and the sound is awesome. Maybe I'm expecting too much!

 

[Power Pop 23]

Your Marantz NR1711 supports the (extra cost) 'Audyssey MultEQ Editor 'App (Google Play or App Store) from Denon/Marantz and the (extra cost) 'MultEQ-X' app for Windows PC from Audyssey Labs. I have not heard either app and what each can offer over the Audyssey 'MultEQ' that comes with the Marantz NR1711. Amir reviewed the 'Audyssey MultEQ Editor' app in April 2020 and considered it to offer performance similar to Dirac Live and Anthem ARC. However, Amir did the testing with an AVR that came with Audyssey 'MultEQ XT32' instead of 'MultEQ'

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

Thanks for your replies. That's interesting because, although I've not had a stereo amp since the late 1970s, everything I have read over the years has led me to believe that a 2 channel integrated amp will be so much better than an av amp unless you spend a lot of money and opt for an Anthem or Arcam. I see a lot of people seem to use an integrated in their av set up for music listening and that's why I asked the question really.

Unfortunately, there are indeed those hearsay/misconceptions, that are not always true, it is not a rule and it always depends on other factors. Many AVRs nowadays are "better" than many integrated amps (just look at the bench test results right here on ASR) in many ways especially if you pair them with some external power amplifiers.

 

[Takahashi]

Your Marantz NR1711 supports the (extra cost) 'Audyssey MultEQ Editor 'App (Google Play or App Store) from Denon/Marantz and the (extra cost) 'MultEQ-X' app for Windows PC from Audyssey Labs. I have not heard either app and what each can offer over the Audyssey 'MultEQ' that comes with the Marantz NR1711. Amir reviewed the 'Audyssey MultEQ Editor' app in April 2020 and considered it to offer performance similar to Dirac Live and Anthem ARC. However, Amir did the testing with an AVR that came with Audyssey 'MultEQ XT32' instead of 'MultEQ'

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks. Post 45 in that link lists all the Marantz amps that support the app. The NR1711 isn't on that list.

 

[lamberticus]

I had a NR1711 and had no problems using the Audyssey app with it.

 

[Power Pop 23]

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

the added detail on this app at the 'more' link says the Marantz NR1711 is compatible

 

[pseudoid]

I had a multi-channel separates (pre/Proc + power amp) Rotel A/V setup for about 4 years.
At first, I was not overjoyed about the prospects that when the release of HDMIv2.1 occurred, I'd have to pitch-out a perfectly suitable system.
This was the third multi-channel A/V separates set-up that I had to retire due to unplanned-obsolescence, and not due to failure of the hardware. <insert definition of insanity here>
It came clear to me that I wanted the simpler-life of a separates but also a strictly a 2-channel set-up for music listening.
If you are looking to 'improve 2-channel music' in your system, I recommend going not only with separates in the audio hardware but also separates between your audio and video gear.
We - as the consumers - have become spoiled by the amount of top-shelf, small form-factor audio hardware at reasonable prices.
Such current and feature-ridden audio gear can also handle NAS-music as well as HDMI/ARC, to allow you to route audio from such sources through 2-channel separates.

 

[Takahashi]

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

the added detail on this app at the 'more' link says the Marantz NR1711 is compatible

OK, thanks. I've been offered a discount if I download so will do that in the morning. Will have to find my cardboard mike stand first. Obviously, you place the mike where you sit at head height so where do I sit when the measurements are taking place? I only ask because my room is so small I cannot get out of the way so to speak.

 

[Power Pop 23]

OK, thanks. I've been offered a discount if I download so will do that in the morning. Will have to find my cardboard mike stand first. Obviously, you place the mike where you sit at head height so where do I sit when the measurements are taking place? I only ask because my room is so small I cannot get out of the way so to speak.

You may have to run a few iterations to see and hear how the measurement is handled for your listening space. Do your best to not be in the way of a test tone and the microphone as the test tones move around your listening space.

 

[peng]

OK, thanks. I've been offered a discount if I download so will do that in the morning. Will have to find my cardboard mike stand first. Obviously, you place the mike where you sit at head height so where do I sit when the measurements are taking place? I only ask because my room is so small I cannot get out of the way so to speak.

Just step away so you won’t be blocking the mic.

Even in a small room, try to do 6 positions for better effects. Post the results if you want some suggestions on post calibration tweaks.

 

[ExPerfectionist]

Audyssey and XO/EQ optimization --> Room config and speaker location / dist from walls / angles / setup --> Optimize room itself, seating placement, furniture placement, walls/floor, etc.

 

[Takahashi]

I have now downloaded the app to my Samsung tablet but have not run it yet. Before downloading I decided to have a go at running Audyssey using the amp. My own settings were somewhat different to the results to say the least.

First question is am I given a choice when switching on amp whether I use Audyssey settings or my own? Couldn't see anything to indicate this.

My own settings were: L+ R set at +2.0 dB
Centre: +3.5 db
Surround: + 2.5 db
Sub: + 2.5 dB

Audyssey settings in picture. The distances are accurate except the two surrounds should be equal.

I had the crossovers set to 80Hz because that's what I assumed to be correct. Audyssey changed this to 40Hz.

I don't understand the FLAT and REFERENCE equalisation graphs?

Why is the sub is so low?

Why the difference between front L and R? The listening position is bang in the centre of these two speakers so I would have expected them to be the same.

Will run the app later on.

 

[peng]

I have now downloaded the app to my Samsung tablet but have not run it yet. Before downloading I decided to have a go at running Audyssey using the amp. My own settings were somewhat different to the results to say the least.

First question is am I given a choice when switching on amp whether I use Audyssey settings or my own? Couldn't see anything to indicate this.

My own settings were: L+ R set at +2.0 dB
Centre: +3.5 db
Surround: + 2.5 db
Sub: + 2.5 dB

Audyssey settings in picture. The distances are accurate except the two surrounds should be equal.

I had the crossovers set to 80Hz because that's what I assumed to be correct. Audyssey changed this to 40Hz.

I don't understand the FLAT and REFERENCE equalisation graphs?

Why is the sub is so low?

Why the difference between front L and R? The listening position is bang in the centre of these two speakers so I would have expected them to be the same.

Will run the app later on.

You should lower the volume setting on your sub, such that the onscreen meter is in the red zone, but by just a little, that is, ignore the warning.

What do you mean by your own settings? How did you come up with your own settings?

 

[Takahashi]

You should lower the volume setting on your sub, such that the onscreen meter is in the red zone, but by just a little, that is, ignore the warning.

What do you mean by your own settings? How did you come up with your own settings?

I have now run the app and the questions I asked in my previous post have been answered.

Anyway, when I uploaded the results to the amp and listened to some music I was a bit underwhelmed. Volume was very low and bass was lacking compared to my normal listening preferences. So, after watching a YouTube video, I went and made a copy of the default file and adjusted the multi eq frequency range for all speakers down to 500 Hz. Uploaded that new file and listened to one of my better sounding cd's and it did sound a lot better than the Audyssey default so happy with that. Are there any other adjustments you would recommend? I have Dynamic Eq set to On and same with Dynamic Volume. Also, Midrange Compensation is on. Are these settings correct? Or is it just a matter of personal taste?

The "my settings" I spoke about in my last post were the adjustments I made to the levels in the amp to make the sound to my liking.

EDIT: Have just started reading, again, the many posts on Audyssey Room EQ Review.

​

 

[-Matt-]

I have Dynamic Eq set to On and same with Dynamic Volume. Also, Midrange Compensation is on. Are these settings correct? Or is it just a matter of personal taste?

The "my settings" I spoke about in my last post were the adjustments I made to the levels in the amp to make the sound to my liking.

EDIT: Have just started reading, again, the many posts on Audyssey Room EQ Review.

Yes these settings are a personal preference. I prefer:
Dynamic Eq On,
Dynamic Volume Off,
Midrange Compensation Off.

With Dynamic Eq you may need to experiment with the reference offset to adjust the bass. (I think 10dB is good, but it depends how loud you listen).

I think the dynamic volume may apply some sort of dynamic range compression (like midnight listening mode) so I prefer not to use this.

If your speakers naturally have a dip in the response between the midrange and tweeter, or if you are particularly sensitive to lisping sounds then you might prefer midrange compensation on.

The great thing about Audyssey (with the app) is that it allows you to tune in the sound to your preference. So don't be afraid to experiment (adding target curve slope for example). But also be aware that you may have become acustomed to higher that standard bass for example. It is a good idea to use the Audyssey default as a sort of baseline, listen to this for a while and then make small deliberate tweaks from there. You can also use REW to measure where you are after Audyssey calibration a bit more accurately.

 

[peng]

I have now run the app and the questions I asked in my previous post have been answered.

Anyway, when I uploaded the results to the amp and listened to some music I was a bit underwhelmed. Volume was very low and bass was lacking compared to my normal listening preferences. So, after watching a YouTube video, I went and made a copy of the default file and adjusted the multi eq frequency range for all speakers down to 500 Hz. Uploaded that new file and listened to one of my better sounding cd's and it did sound a lot better than the Audyssey default so happy with that. Are there any other adjustments you would recommend? I have Dynamic Eq set to On and same with Dynamic Volume. Also, Midrange Compensation is on. Are these settings correct? Or is it just a matter of personal taste?

Yes there are quite a few thing you can try to a) improve the frequency response based on accuracy/neutrality, or b) change the frequency response to your liking.
As to mid range compensations, for some speakers, midrange compensation on may sound better to you while for other speakers it may sound worse to you. So while most users, especially those who are more experienced and like to do some manual tweaking, will always get better result by disabling DEQ MRC, i.e. midrange compensation, but for beginners, who would not do manual tweaks or would just tweak a little, should try both MRC on and MRC off and then decide.

DEQ, in my opinion, and in theory, should be always on but do try the different offset, 0 is by default and will get the maximum effects (boosts in the bass and treble, but unfortunately also the surround levels that many people don't like, some do, obviously. You may prefer anywhere from 0 dB to 15 dB offset, or use a different setting for different thing such as that suggested by Audyssey as follow:

Audyssey Dynamic EQ is referenced to the standard film mix level. It makes adjustments to maintain the reference response and surround envelopment when the volume is turned down from 0 dB. However, film reference level is not always used in music or other non-film content. The Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset provides three offsets from the film level reference (5 dB, 10 dB, and 15 dB) that can be selected when the mix level of the content is not within the standard.

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.

15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.

10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.

5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music.

DV: My suggestions for you is to turn it off in the beginning, but once you have the whole thing "dialed in", then you can experiment with the setting.

Again, just reference Audyssey's, and leave it off that is by default in the beginning, and then play with it once you got everything else settled.

Dynamic Volume was designed to control the dynamic range of the content. In most home listening situations, the background noise in the room is higher than that of the studio. So, the low level stuff will be masked by the noise. If you turn the volume up, then the loud still will likely be too loud. Dynamic Volume lets you turn up the level so that the soft stuff (and the dialog) are where you want them without having to worry about running for the remote for the loud parts.

If you have a dedicated room with very low background noise and don't mind the peaks hitting high levels then you can run with Dynamic Volume off. In most everyday listening situations, I think you will find it useful.

But, in the end it's a preference feature and that's why it's not on by default. Nothing is lost when you turn it on and off.

The "my settings" I spoke about in my last post were the adjustments I made to the levels in the amp to make the sound to my liking.

Okay, in that case, it is subjective and the results, if measured with a good mic and measurement software, you will find that results won't be as accurate. Even distances measured by your measuring tape may not be as accurate as that measured by running Audyssey, with the stock $60 worth mic, because it is not really distances that were measured, but the delays that obviously get influenced by the reflections from the walls, ceilings, floor, and furniture etc..

EDIT: Have just started reading, again, the many posts on Audyssey Room EQ Review.

​

Have fun, if you have time to work on it, you can improve the overall results a lot, more so than by swapping hardware.