Improving 2 channel music in av setup

[peng]

Anyway, when I uploaded the results to the amp and listened to some music I was a bit underwhelmed. Volume was very low and bass was lacking compared to my normal listening preferences. So, after watching a YouTube video, I went and made a copy of the default file and adjusted the multi eq frequency range for all speakers down to 500 Hz.

Since the Marantz low profile series come with only the lowest version RC, that is the Audyssey MultEQ, you may get better results by limiting it down to 300 Hz, but we are not sure where the cutoff point they use for the 128X filter resolution, so it is better to experiment from 500 Hz down to around 300 Hz should cover it. That is because the MultEQ version has rather poor resolution for the higher frequencies.

Difference between Audyssey Multeq VS Multeq XT Vs Multeq XT32

Are the three a lot different?(perceptible difference) Description says they differ by their filter resolution but I want to know whether it actually means something.

www.audiosciencereview.com

By the way, if you have time, there are many threads on the MultEQ Editor app with lots of tips for beginner users (the $20 version) thread, below is one I can conveniently link, because I create it.

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

There are a few such threads already, but no users/or owners thread that I am aware of, so I thought it may be better to have one for the users. This thread is for MultEQ users in general, so it is not limited to Denon and Marantz product owners in case users of other brands may be interested...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[Takahashi]

Since the Marantz low profile series come with only the lowest version RC, that is the Audyssey MultEQ, you may get better results by limiting it down to 300 Hz, but we are not sure where the cutoff point they use for the 128X filter resolution, so it is better to experiment from 500 Hz down to around 300 Hz should cover it. That is because the MultEQ version has rather poor resolution for the higher frequencies.

Difference between Audyssey Multeq VS Multeq XT Vs Multeq XT32

Are the three a lot different?(perceptible difference) Description says they differ by their filter resolution but I want to know whether it actually means something.

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 390975

By the way, if you have time, there are many threads on the MultEQ Editor app with lots of tips for beginner users (the $20 version) thread, below is one I can conveniently link, because I create it.

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

There are a few such threads already, but no users/or owners thread that I am aware of, so I thought it may be better to have one for the users. This thread is for MultEQ users in general, so it is not limited to Denon and Marantz product owners in case users of other brands may be interested...

forums.audioholics.com

Many thanks for your (and others) valuable input. This stuff is a bit of a learning curve for those of us who have never explored this subject before. Thoughts of buying new gear to improve my sound are fast receding in the rear view mirror - I did a lot of music listening this morning and I couldn't honestly come up with any reason not to like what I was hearing - very pleased with the results so happy I posted my original question.

The thing is, when reading reviews of equipment in magazines and online, it so easy to get caught up in all the hysteria and to feel you desperately need this amp/dac/streamer or whatever. Marketing is a very powerful tool!

I'll play around with the settings as you suggest. That should keep me occupied for a while. Thanks again.

 

[-Matt-]

So while most users, especially those who are more experienced and like to do some manual tweaking, will always get better result by disabling DEQ, but for beginner, who would not do manual tweaks or would just tweak a little, should try both DEQ on and DEQ off and then decide.

@peng in some of the places you typed DEQ I think you might actually have been referring to the midrange compensation. Could be a bit confusing.

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for your replies. That's interesting because, although I've not had a stereo amp since the late 1970s, everything I have read over the years has led me to believe that a 2 channel integrated amp will be so much better than an av amp unless you spend a lot of money and opt for an Anthem or Arcam. I see a lot of people seem to use an integrated in their av set up for music listening and that's why I asked the question really.

My existing sub B&K electronics XL200 received some very good reviews a few years back when it was first out - no longer available - and I have it positioned very close to the left speaker, which is not ideal, but it sits on an isolation mat and I'm OK with the sound from it.

I have not run Audyssey on the amp as I thought that caters for movie sound only and I have no problem with that. Dialogue is very clear and the crash, bang wallops sound as they should to me. Maybe I'll have a play around with Audyssey and make some adjustments to tone controls. Pure sound mode sounds lifeless with no sub. My front speakers are not far from the side/back walls toed in to the listening position so I might move them out slightly to see if it makes much difference.

I should also say I have a Graham Slee headphone amp which I use with a pair of Meze classics and the sound is awesome. Maybe I'm expecting too much!

I've been fascinated by the people who believe another integrated amp with their avr is somehow a superior solution for audio that only comes from a L/R channel audio source. Not my experience. Mine was more with moving from separates to avrs when transitioning from 2ch analog only to digital/multich/subs. Anthem and Arcam don't have any particular avr magic either. Why is your sub on an isolation mat? Is your floor that resonant? I would think perhaps a power amp could be useful more than another integrated amp (since your avr is an integrated amp too), especially with the low power amps the 1711 has on board.

Audyssey can be very useful for audio, altho some prefer not to use it. Try it for yourself, and use the Audyssey Editor App if your model can work with it for more flexibility. With most Audyssey units tone control is defeated if the Audyssey eq is enabled, fwiw and are much more useful/capable than the tone controls (or the onboard graphic eq, which is probably a bit better than just the tone controls). One of the nicer features at lower volume is the Audyssey DynamicEQ feature.

 

[peng]

@peng in some of the places you typed DEQ I think you might actually have been referring to the midrange compensation. Could be a bit confusing.

Yes I meant midrange compensation, thank you.

 

[Takahashi]

I've been fascinated by the people who believe another integrated amp with their avr is somehow a superior solution for audio that only comes from a L/R channel audio source. Not my experience. Mine was more with moving from separates to avrs when transitioning from 2ch analog only to digital/multich/subs. Anthem and Arcam don't have any particular avr magic either. Why is your sub on an isolation mat? Is your floor that resonant? I would think perhaps a power amp could be useful more than another integrated amp (since your avr is an integrated amp too), especially with the low power amps the 1711 has on board.

Audyssey can be very useful for audio, altho some prefer not to use it. Try it for yourself, and use the Audyssey Editor App if your model can work with it for more flexibility. With most Audyssey units tone control is defeated if the Audyssey eq is enabled, fwiw and are much more useful/capable than the tone controls (or the onboard graphic eq, which is probably a bit better than just the tone controls). One of the nicer features at lower volume is the Audyssey DynamicEQ feature.

Yes, the sub makes the floorboards vibrate and can be felt under your feet from the listening position which is about 3 metres away. An isolation mat cures this. Some people use a paving slab or a slab of granite.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, the sub makes the floorboards vibrate and can be felt under your feet from the listening position which is about 3 metres away. An isolation mat cures this. Some people use a paving slab or a slab of granite.

I've not had a wood floor that resonant!

 

[Takahashi]

I've not had a wood floor that resonant!

I must be unlucky then. In my last house we had a wooden plank floor resting on 12" joists. On top of the floorboards there was 20mm plywood sheets and on top of that was an engineered wooden floor. The isolation mat cured the problem and tightened up the bass. I don’t have the sub volume high. Just enough to be aware of its presence when the bass instruments kick in.

My existing floor is just floorboards resting on the joists. Haven't used the sub without the mat as that would be pointless.

 

[ExPerfectionist]

An FYI regarding the Dynamic EQ in Audyssey:

The EQ/sub/surround channel level changes are the same for each option (0, 5, 10, 15). The different number settings are the "offset" numbers. For example, on the volume dial you might listen to music at -30 ~ -40, maybe in the -20s for higher volumes. For movies and TV, you might watch at -15 ~ -25 on the dial. For Blu-ray movies, maybe you're up to -10 ~ -15 on the dial.

There are more adjustments or compensations, level boosts, the further away you are from the "offset" value. For example, watching a movie at -15 on the dial with offset set to 15 means there is 0 adjustment, but if you set offset to 0, then it makes adjustments for 15 volume notches versus offset. If offset is at 15 and you go above -15 on the dial (-10 ~ -14 for example), DEQ will turn DOWN bass and surround channel levels.

If you have the dial set to -30 when listening to music, DEQ offset of 15 will be the same amount of auto-adjustment and level boosts as when you watch movies at -15 with offset set to 0, because the difference between the offset value and the volume dial is 15 notches.


I personally have my music sources (streaming, CD, vinyl) set to DEQ offset 15. For TV audio (Netlix, other streaming) and video games, I set it to 5 (I usually watch Netflix/streaming at about -20 ish on volume dial). For Blu-ray, I set it to 0 (I don't watch a lot of Blu-rays, but volume dial would be more in the -12 ~ -18 range).

With music, listening at -25 ~ -40 on the dial, offset at 10~0 is way too bass heavy, but offset 15 sounds about right with strong bass.
(Marantz SR-5015 AVR, Ascend Sierra LX fronts and SVS Elevation surrounds, Rythmik F12SE sub)

 

[Takahashi]

Here are the graphs/results from my Audyssey. I haven't a clue what they tell me. I have made a few adjustments. Dynamic Eq and volume is now set to OFF. Multi Eq frequency range is now set to 400. I originally brought this down to 500 and it sounded better. I then knocked it down to 300 but could not hear any difference so I hedged my bets and upped it to 400.

Watched a movie yesterday and noticed the surrounds were outputting too much bass for my liking so I've changed the crossovers back to 80. The level of the surrounds are a bit too high for my taste so will also reduce these today.

I also watched two bluray concerts. Roy Orbison Black and White Night and Eagles concert in Melbourne. Orbison sounded fine apart from the loud rears but there was very little from centre speaker during the Eagles blu ray so I will have to raise that up a few notches. Now that surprised me because I assumed the centre speaker was OK because the film I watched previously sounded fine.

 

[peng]

Here are the graphs/results from my Audyssey. I haven't a clue what they tell me. I have made a few adjustments. Dynamic Eq and volume is now set to OFF. Multi Eq frequency range is now set to 400. I originally brought this down to 500 and it sounded better. I then knocked it down to 300 but could not hear any difference so I hedged my bets and upped it to 400.

Watched a movie yesterday and noticed the surrounds were outputting too much bass for my liking so I've changed the crossovers back to 80. The level of the surrounds are a bit too high for my taste so will also reduce these today.

I also watched two bluray concerts. Roy Orbison Black and White Night and Eagles concert in Melbourne. Orbison sounded fine apart from the loud rears but there was very little from centre speaker during the Eagles blu ray so I will have to raise that up a few notches. Now that surprised me because I assumed the centre speaker was OK because the film I watched previously sounded fine.

If you feel like more bass, try Amir’s target curve.

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ExPerfectionist]

I also watched two bluray concerts. Roy Orbison Black and White Night and Eagles concert in Melbourne. Orbison sounded fine apart from the loud rears but there was very little from centre speaker during the Eagles blu ray so I will have to raise that up a few notches. Now that surprised me because I assumed the centre speaker was OK because the film I watched previously sounded fine.

Don't adjust your channel levels based on a concert DVD. You don't know how it was mixed or how much volume the center channel was supposed to have.

It's better to verify using the Channel Level test tones from the receiver, where you can manually adjust the channel levels. Turn it up pretty high, not higher than comfortable, and cycle through the channels to adjust. Best to use an SPL meter, or SPL app on your phone, by ear if you must but at least you can tell if a channel is way too high/low. The test tones won't include the channel level boosts/cuts from Dynamic EQ, however. You'd need a test/setup disc running through the receiver's Audyssey/settings to test the actual output of that.



Also, I wouldn't suggest keeping the XO that low for your speakers (40Hz mains, 60Hz other). 60 at the lowest but you lose a lot of bass output from the sub that way. You can change it within the app so when it sends the settings to the receiver, it uses your manual override. You can also change manually in the receiver on your own as well.

The Center Channel level looks to be a lot lower than the others on auto. How is it situated in the room? Make sure if it's on a shelf, you pull it to the front edge or better yet, past the front edge of the shelf, and tilted to aim at the height of the ear level at the seating position. If it's back on the shelf, you are going to get a lot of reflections from the speaker hitting the surface of the shelf (and around in the enclosure if you have it inside a cabinet).

Make sure you're using the Reference setting for Audyssey, not Flat. Reference will use your cutoff frequency on the channels. Flat will override and EQ everything on all channels.

 

[Takahashi]

Don't adjust your channel levels based on a concert DVD. You don't know how it was mixed or how much volume the center channel was supposed to have.

It's better to verify using the Channel Level test tones from the receiver, where you can manually adjust the channel levels. Turn it up pretty high, not higher than comfortable, and cycle through the channels to adjust. Best to use an SPL meter, or SPL app on your phone, by ear if you must but at least you can tell if a channel is way too high/low. The test tones won't include the channel level boosts/cuts from Dynamic EQ, however. You'd need a test/setup disc running through the receiver's Audyssey/settings to test the actual output of that.



Also, I wouldn't suggest keeping the XO that low for your speakers (40Hz mains, 60Hz other). 60 at the lowest but you lose a lot of bass output from the sub that way. You can change it within the app so when it sends the settings to the receiver, it uses your manual override. You can also change manually in the receiver on your own as well.

The Center Channel level looks to be a lot lower than the others on auto. How is it situated in the room? Make sure if it's on a shelf, you pull it to the front edge or better yet, past the front edge of the shelf, and tilted to aim at the height of the ear level at the seating position. If it's back on the shelf, you are going to get a lot of reflections from the speaker hitting the surface of the shelf (and around in the enclosure if you have it inside a cabinet).

Make sure you're using the Reference setting for Audyssey, not Flat. Reference will use your cutoff frequency on the channels. Flat will override and EQ everything on all channels.

Thanks. I'm afraid I have to own up to making a stupid mistake with the centre channel and the Eagles disc. Inserting the disc and pressing play means it defaults to the stereo track and not the surround one. So that explains the lack of centre speaker activity.

The centre speaker shown in the photo is about 10cm from the wall. The speaker is designed to be hung on a wall. I was thinking of putting a few rubber feet under the front to angle it slightly upwards as it is slightly lower than my head when sitting opposite.

The Test Tone sounds pretty good/level to my ears and the tone of all the speakers sound the same which is also good.

I've changed the crossovers back to 80 and the surrounds are much better. Do you know how to change the name of a new file in Audyssey? Can't see how to do it.

 

[OldHvyMec]

everything I have read over the years has led me to believe that a 2 channel integrated amp will be so much better than an av amp unless you spend a lot of money and opt for an Anthem or Arcam.

If you like sound effects, you buy an HT system, If you want music you buy a 2-channel system. I was just on another form and they were trying to say how good an AVR can sound for a stereo music setup. They are right, but why? You can choose wisely and have a great dedicated stereo that will play HT very well, without the huge box, extra cost and heat for 7-11 channels. Many of my neighbors have had failures, with so many things in the box. Not many repair people will look at one to fix and 99% of the time the repair person will recommend a new AVR. AVP not so much, depending on who made it. I have a Krell AVP that's an HT 5.1 and well over 30 years old. Other than being a line stage (I'm not a huge fan) it is one of the better Stereos and 2/3 channels I've ever had besides Mcintosh. I have both an MX120 and 121, both with tone control. You would be hard-pressed to find the quality or reliability in any AVR including Mcintosh.

I do have a Harmon Kardon 75 watt rms per channel AVR 7.1, that just keeps plugging along. I can't seem to break it, but an old stereo receiver with tone control will easily
do a better job for stereo listening.

it defaults to the stereo track and not the surround one.

That is 2-channel stereo vs 2 channel sound played on 2 or more speakers including subs and center. I have a Krell 5.1 that is wonderful because the sub-volume is right on the aluminum billet remote. It does a great job without tone control, I can't remember if it has L/R balance. It's been 10+ years since I've used it. I'll still stick with Mcintosh AVP's tone control and variable loudness (they call it trim) Works very well for low-volume impact weather for music or HT.

Regards

 

[Chrispy]

Here are the graphs/results from my Audyssey. I haven't a clue what they tell me. I have made a few adjustments. Dynamic Eq and volume is now set to OFF. Multi Eq frequency range is now set to 400. I originally brought this down to 500 and it sounded better. I then knocked it down to 300 but could not hear any difference so I hedged my bets and upped it to 400.

Watched a movie yesterday and noticed the surrounds were outputting too much bass for my liking so I've changed the crossovers back to 80. The level of the surrounds are a bit too high for my taste so will also reduce these today.

I also watched two bluray concerts. Roy Orbison Black and White Night and Eagles concert in Melbourne. Orbison sounded fine apart from the loud rears but there was very little from centre speaker during the Eagles blu ray so I will have to raise that up a few notches. Now that surprised me because I assumed the centre speaker was OK because the film I watched previously sounded fine.

The green graph is a rough graph of the measurement taken, the red merely a proposal of eq to go with it. Really need actual measurements afterwards. If you only had stereo mode engaged how did sound get to the surrounds? I'd try perhaps even higher crossover than 80, too.

 

[OldHvyMec]

I'd try perhaps even higher crossover than 80, too.

Why higher and not lower? like 60 or even 40hz for subs? I'm just wondering why. You can spin me in a chair and I can pinpoint the direction of an 80hz signal pretty easy.
I use both bass columns and subs. The bass columns are in a band-pass that you can pinpoint. They actually image a center phantom, but subs are impossible in my rooms. I think the subs are at 30 or 40hz in the front room. (wife's set up). Stanly Clark vinyl is pretty impressive, she was listening to that, Tony Williams and Jeff Beck just last night. "Million Dollar Legs," it had been quite a while.

Regards

 

[Chrispy]

Why higher and not lower? like 60 or even 40hz for subs? I'm just wondering why. You can spin me in a chair and I can pinpoint the direction of an 80hz signal pretty easy.
I use both bass columns and subs. The bass columns are in a band-pass that you can pinpoint. They actually image a center phantom, but subs are impossible in my rooms. I think the subs are at 30 or 40hz in the front room. (wife's set up). Stanly Clark vinyl is pretty impressive, she was listening to that, Tony Williams and Jeff Beck just last night. "Million Dollar Legs," it had been quite a while.

Regards

Because he's already tried the lower crossovers. I have no idea what your setup is let alone your ability to "localize", but with multiple subs sounds odd that you could readily do so. Maybe its your setup or rooms.

 

[-Matt-]

Here are some things I'd be thinking of trying if I were you (you decide if any of them are practical for you)...

Front L and R, I was surprised by how low these were going, but now I see why. It is beacuse they are right in the corners. I'd try positioning the front L and R just to either side of the cabinet and slightly infront of the cabinet. This will give as much space as possible to the side walls. This should flatten the bass response a bit, meaning that you will need to set the crossover higher (hopefully it will match closer to 80Hz).

Centre channel: Someone already said this but it could help to bring it right up to the front of the cabinet. Also raising it up and angling it slightly (as you said) could help.

Carpet will help, (hopefully also damping the floor resonances you mention).

Can you pull your sofa away from the rear wall at all? (Even just a foot or two may help).

If you move the front L and R you will probably also need to move the sub. First place I'd try is very close to the front corners of the room (I'd try both). You can also try setting the sub level slightly higher than audyssey wants it in the pre-calibration setup. This may allow Audyssey to get it flatter across a wider range after EQ.

Crossovers, definitely start at 80Hz for the fronts, consider changing the surrounds to 100Hz or even 120Hz. The measured response makes it look like your speakers go low, but I wouldn't be surprised if the distortion is quite high at those low frequencies, and this distorted sound gets boosted by the corner placement.

Hopefully the sound may be cleaner with less boomy bass if you can bring the speakers away from the corners.

Once the room reinforcement of bass is tamed a bit you may then prefer Dynamic EQ to be enabled.

I hope you will enjoy the voyage of audio tweaking that you are just embarking on!

 

[-Matt-]

Also...

Your pre Audyssey measurements show that your speakers have dips at 2kHz. This means it will probably be best to set midrange compensation ON. (You probably don't want Audyssey to try to fill these dips in). (Sort of negated by the fact that you currently limit Audyssey's correction range).

I'd consider letting Audyssey correct even as far as 1kHz. Might not work well, as your AVR has lower EQ resolution, but the hope would be that it might smooth out the midrange frequency response a bit.

 

[OldHvyMec]

Maybe its your setup or rooms.

Could be. I do use a VERY steep slope between subs and bass columns (48db ?). Bass to mains is 24db if I remember correctly.

Thanks

Regards