How much power and SPL's do people actually need in their homes?

[Mark S.]

The Denon PMA-60 I just acquired can muster maybe 37+37W into my 82dB/W 6-ohm speakers. Meh, according to many here and elsewhere.


Well, balls - frankly it has WAY more power than I can imagine anyone needing in a typical home.


In my ground floor flat, smallish but not tiny, which is insulated from the next floor in my complex by nearly a metre of rockwool between the false ceiling and the c 3.5+ metre Victorian one, anything above c. the -35dB mark on its volume control (which gets an average of c. 79-80dB @ 2.5 metres with something like a Blondie album) will get me A) into fist-fights with the neighbours and B) evicted soon after that.


But it's pretty much the same spec as the previous PMA-50 whose "limited" power Amirm declared put it at a disadvantage with competitors.


Is the idea that if you can't get enough SPL's for weddings and bar mitzvahs then your hifi is "underpowered", or what?

 

[ppataki]

The Denon PMA-60 I just acquired can muster maybe 37+37W into my 82dB/W 6-ohm speakers. Meh, according to many here and elsewhere.


Well, balls - frankly it has WAY more power than I can imagine anyone needing in a typical home.


In my ground floor flat, smallish but not tiny, which is insulated from the next floor in my complex by nearly a metre of rockwool between the false ceiling and the c 3.5+ metre Victorian one, anything above c. the -35dB mark on its volume control (which gets an average of c. 79-80dB @ 2.5 metres with something like a Blondie album) will get me A) into fist-fights with the neighbours and B) evicted soon after that.


But it's pretty much the same spec as the previous PMA-50 whose "limited" power Amirm declared put it at a disadvantage with competitors.


Is the idea that if you can't get enough SPL's for weddings and bar mitzvahs then your hifi is "underpowered", or what?

Actually one of my friends was asking the same question last week so I have measured it for him

My MLP is 2.8m from the front speakers and the sub and 1.6m from the rears, I have used the trailer of the latest Super Mario Brothers movie as the test material, volume set where I consider things are like loud loud (=I would never watch a movie above that volume level, not because of the neighbors or anything but simply because I don't feel comfortable)

I used my UMIK-1 microphone with REW SPL Logger (fast mode, Z weighting)
Results: Average SPL was 93dB, max SPL was 102dB, dynamic range about 40dB

Here is the graph:

 

[Mark S.]

Interesting, but I have to wonder what proportion of people have homes in which they can play audio at average SPL's of 93dB whenever they want, or who would want to for that matter (at least, when they're sober).

 

[Steve Dallas]

I listen at an average of 75dB with peaks in the low to mid 90s. I don't need much power, but I have tons of it.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

You might be interested in this thread; it discusses crest factor and headroom.

Amplifier power and clipping points: are power ratings supposed to be related to clipping points?

Hello ASR, thank you in advance for answering my silly question. I have a hunch that this has been standardized in the industry, only that I'm not good enough at googling. As we know, there are two ways wave-forms add: for coherent ones, two equal signals in phase adds into something with 2x...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

 

[mhardy6647]

SPL needed depends on multiple variables (including, of course, sanity and otic health).
Power depends on loudspeaker sensitivity.

 

[DVDdoug]

If your system goes loud enough for you without distortion, you're good. Most people aren't listening loud most of the time and you can generally get-away with a few watts. But if you sometimes want to hit "realistic" levels, power requirements increase exponentially (because our hearing is proportional/logarithmic).

IMO - A powered subwoofer with the bass boosted a bit can make your system sound a lot "bigger" and more powerful without increasing the overall loudness that much...

...Bass takes more power to begin with and woofers usually roll-off at the lowest frequencies, or if a woofer/subwoofer is flat down to 20Hz, it's usually less efficient overall.

Here is a video by our host, Amir - How Loud is Loud?

Bob Katz (mastering engineer) has a paper (about levels in mastering) where talks about preferred listening levels - K-system mastering. I believe the conclusion is 85dB SPL average in movie theaters and 79dB average for home theater, with 20dB of headroom in both cases. But the paper is a few pages long with lots of numbers and it's been awhile since I've read the whole thing so there may different "final conclusions".

 

[DonH56]

Old post on power needs:

Power Needs:

For many years I have used 17 dB peak-to-average power based on an old AES article I can no longer find. Anecdotally various audio fora report 20 dB or more for movies. IME most people use much less average power than they think, but require more peak power. An online calculator can help you estimate your average power; note 80 dB is very loud to me (YMMV). Here is one:

Peak SPL Calculator

Most people think of volume in dB and most modern AVR/AVP/etc. units list dB on the volume knob. Power in dB goes as 10log10(Power_ratio) so the change in power is 10^(dB/10). Here are some reference numbers in dB and power:

1 dB is barely noticeable and requires 1.26x the power
3 dB is what most people hear as "a little louder" and requires 2x the power
6 dB is significantly louder and requires 4x the power
10 dB sounds twice as loud and requires 10x the power
17 dB is the headroom for music and requires 50x the average power
20 dB for movies requires 100x the power

If you listen at around 1 W average, then you need 50~100 W to avoid clipping on most source material. You can figure out your estimated average power from the calculator knowing your speaker's sensitivity and distance from them. Note music may be more compressed and thus require less headroom, and the loudest sounds in movies tend to be things like gun shots and explosions where a little clipping is likely unnoticeable.

HTH - Don

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Actually one of my friends was asking the same question last week so I have measured it for him

My MLP is 2.8m from the front speakers and the sub and 1.6m from the rears, I have used the trailer of the latest Super Mario Brothers movie as the test material, volume set where I consider things are like loud loud (=I would never watch a movie above that volume level, not because of the neighbors or anything but simply because I don't feel comfortable)

I used my UMIK-1 microphone with REW SPL Logger (fast mode, Z weighting)
Results: Average SPL was 93dB, max SPL was 102dB, dynamic range about 40dB

Here is the graph:

View attachment 348267

So. With this setup you actually don't know what kind of power was needed to reach those levels because you measured with a (powered?) sub and high-passed (?) speakers.
Z-weighting (flat) and movie trailer.. -The sub was probably responsible for pulling those SPL peaks.

 

[ppataki]

So. With this setup you actually don't know what kind of power was needed to reach those levels because you measured with a (powered?) sub and high-passed (?) speakers.
Z-weighting (flat) and movie trailer.. -The sub was probably responsible for pulling those SPL peaks.

Yes I know
But that was the point, he wanted to know how much SPL I have when I watch a movie on my system
With music it would be less, last time I measured it the peaks were around 90-93dB (back at that time I did not have the sub)

 

[Mr. Widget]

Is the idea that if you can't get enough SPL's for weddings and bar mitzvahs then your hifi is "underpowered", or what?

Most of us probably listen in the 75dB-85dB range most of the time, but I personally do turn it up for brief periods of spirited listening occasionally. Since I enjoy being able to do that I use speakers that are way more sensitive than yours and have essentially unlimited power available.

Most typical audiophile speakers that are fairly inefficient don't handle lots of power gracefully. Most will get unpleasantly loud if pushed, but that is just the thing... they sound rather unpleasant when turned up past a "comfortable" listening level.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Bob Katz (mastering engineer) has a paper (about levels in mastering) where talks about preferred listening levels - K-system mastering. I believe the conclusion is 85dB SPL average in movie theaters and 79dB average for home theater, with 20dB of headroom in both cases. But the paper is a few pages long with lots of numbers and it's been awhile since I've read the whole thing so there may different "final conclusions".

+1 on the Bob Katz K-System approach. I followed it when calibrating my system and was surprised that it seemed to optimise music dynamic range

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Is the idea that if you can't get enough SPL's for weddings and bar mitzvahs then your hifi is "underpowered", or what

Others have mentioned crest factory, and it's valuable to read up on this.

I read an article in a studio magazine years ago (and I can't track it down). Some engineers tried to recreate the dynamics of a grand piano (played forte in the studio) in the monitoring cubicle. They walked between the two rooms. They discovered the real world crest factor for a live piano was much higher than expected and estimated that 5000W for a fraction of a second was required.

I have been near a grand piano in a studio when it's really being played and, man, is it loud!

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Most of us probably listen in the 75dB-85dB range most of the time, but I personally do turn it up for brief periods of spirited listening occasionally. Since I enjoy being able to do that I use speakers that are way more sensitive than yours and have essentially unlimited power available.

Most typical audiophile speakers that are fairly inefficient don't handle lots of power gracefully. Most will get unpleasantly loud if pushed, but that is just the thing... they sound rather unpleasant when turned up past a "comfortable" listening level.

AKA compression and distortion.

Others have mentioned crest factory, and it's valuable to read up on this.

I read an article in a studio magazine years ago (and I can't track it down). Some engineers tried to recreate the dynamics of a grand piano (played forte in the studio) in the monitoring cubicle. They walked between the two rooms. They discovered the real world crest factor for a live piano was much higher than expected and estimated that 5000W for a fraction of a second was required.

I have been near a grand piano in a studio when it's really being played and, man, is it loud!

Live instruments are bonkers and wickedly powerful if you think about it. Think about the power you'd need to reach the physicality! Well, you said 5 kW. For a piano to be proper rendered. -A piano..
Now think about the peak power needed for percussion instruments.

 

[Mr. Widget]

AKA compression and distortion.

If the goal it to approach a realistic rendering of live instruments in your home, you need an extremely capable system... but then most of us do not really want that in our homes.

As I posted earlier in this thread, on occasion I do enjoy playback at "realistic" levels for short periods of time. With a capable system it can be quite thrilling. With a more typical system using a couple of 8" woofers a mid and dome tweeter, it is usually not... and often the compression and distortion isn't all that obvious, the sound is simply not particularly enjoyable.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

If the goal it to approach a realistic rendering of live instruments in your home, you need an extremely capable system... but then most of us do not really want that in our homes.

As I posted earlier in this thread, on occasion I do enjoy playback at "realistic" levels for short periods of time. With a capable system it can be quite thrilling. With a more typical system using a couple of 8" woofers a mid and dome tweeter, it is usually not... and often the compression and distortion isn't all that obvious, the sound is simply not particularly enjoyable.

The sound gets unbearable due to the compression and distortion. This is the reason why speakers begins to sound rough. With speakers capable you get to enjoy a much louder SPL without it feeling bad. The risk is of course that you need to know how loud it actually is to protect your ears.

 

[Mr. Widget]

The risk is of course that you need to know how loud it actually is to protect your ears.

At the risk of going off topic, as you pointed out earlier live instruments can be extremely loud... and I am not thinking of the obvious example of heavy metal and loud rock concerts.

Today we see plexiglas shields in front of the brass sections of an orchestra to protect the musicians sitting in front of them and they are typically on risers to project out over the heads of those musicians, but for the percussionists and others that are very close to their explosively loud instruments, I wonder how many develop hearing issues?

 

[anmpr1]

Some years ago I asked Peter Aczel, a man I learned much from, the same question. That is, about necessary amplification. This is what he told me:

The dynamic range of the human ear is more than 120 dB. The dynamic range of 16-bit digital recording is theoretically 98 dB. The difference between the absolute softest audible music in a concert hall and the loudest climaxes is of the order of 60 to 70 dB because of the ambient noise floor. Let us say you need 1 milliwatt of amplifier power, in a given installation, to play the softest passages (I am just guessing), then 70 dB above that would come to 10,000 watts. Any domestic loudspeaker would go up in smoke with that kind of input. With extremely high-efficiency horn-type theater speakers the numbers change; it is actually possible to produce levels of 110 or 115 dB or even more in a single installation, and here’s the remarkable thing—you can tolerate it because the distortion is low. We tend to judge loudness by the amount of distortion we hear, not by SPL! You wouldn’t adjust the volume control if you heard no distortion. So, you could have your “too good” 98-dB balls-to-the-wall digital recording without compression, if the efficiency and power-handling capability of your system were adequate—which they generally are not.

I believe Peter was influenced anent his 'distortion v SPL' from his interaction with the late Drew Daniels, JBL applications engineer. In any case, the idea of power handling has always been a 'problem'. In the early days of hi-fi, watts were expensive. So downstream product made the difference. Paul Klipsch (among others) worked within that reality. And for his purposes the minuscule (by today's standards) Brook amplifier did the trick.

However by the mid '70s all of that was forgotten. SS was the answer to the question. In the '60s an AR3 was approachable using the Dyna ST-70. More or less. However ten years on, the AR LST challanged people's existing perceptions of what was necessary for 'modern' hi-fi amplification. Playing at 'realistic' SPL, Bob Carver's Phase Linear 700 routinely clippled on the LST--not as severe as the Crown DC-300, but still... By the time we got to the 1 ohm Apogee ribbons, no amount of amplifier power was unrealistic. This seems to be our legacy, today.

They key is to match your loudspeakers to your amplifier, along with your listening SPL preferences. I've always been an advocate of high sensitivity loudspeakers. Especially horns. Because they don't tax the amp..., but mostly because they don't sound like a box (which is another topic, altogether). But few ASR cognoscenti would probably be happy with that route.

An alternative I find compelling is the Linkwitz open baffle design. Especially using their Hypex N-core modules. If I was to beam into the 21st century, I'd probably go that route.

 

[Mark S.]

I realise that crest-factor/dynamic range has a bearing, and indeed my library of CD-sourced music spans 35 years or more, and I have quite a few recordings of records I made over the years, so it runs the gamut from hyper-compressed modern stuff that pins the meters at -0.1dB (most of which I can't listen to, for e.g Muse's entire catalogue) to some old releases with peaks at -6dB or even less, a massive range of RMS values overall. All the same, after thinking the PMA-60 was going to be marginal with the low-sensitivity Roth Oli RA1's I use, it really is over-powered for my (I would say) pretty representative metropolitan dwelling. I do use a steep high-pass filter above c. 30 Hz to stop power being used to uselessly 'pump' the little cones which nets some extra headroom, which I guess is something most people wouldn't do.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I realise that crest-factor/dynamic range has a bearing, and indeed my library of CD-sourced music spans 35 years or more, and I have quite a few recordings of records I made over the years, so it runs the gamut from hyper-compressed modern stuff that pins the meters at -0.1dB (most of which I can't listen to, for e.g Muse's entire catalogue) to some old releases with peaks at -6dB or even less, a massive range of RMS values overall. All the same, after thinking the PMA-60 was going to be marginal with the low-sensitivity Roth Oli RA1's I use, it really is over-powered for my (I would say) pretty representative metropolitan dwelling. I do use a steep high-pass filter above c. 30 Hz to stop power being used to uselessly 'pump' the little cones which nets some extra headroom, which I guess is something most people wouldn't do.

A lot of the time an average of 1 to 5W is all anyone needs for loud sounds from normal speakers.