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How do we perceive “soundstage” and “imaging”?

thefsb

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I also suggest Magnus Lindberg's "Action - Situation - Signification" (Toimii Ensemble on Finlandia Records ‎– 1576-53372-2).

First: both Tidal and Qobuz search features suck at the level of "what's the point?"

I can't find https://www.discogs.com/Magnus-Lindberg-Action-Situation-Signification-Kraft-/release/5012757 on Qobuz or Tidal. If you can then please give me a share URL.

I can find only this https://www.discogs.com/Magnus-Lind...ny-Orchestra-Piano-Concerto-Kr/master/1244501 Does that suffice?
 

Kal Rubinson

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First: both Tidal and Qobuz search features suck at the level of "what's the point?"

I can't find https://www.discogs.com/Magnus-Lindberg-Action-Situation-Signification-Kraft-/release/5012757 on Qobuz or Tidal. If you can then please give me a share URL.

I can find only this https://www.discogs.com/Magnus-Lind...ny-Orchestra-Piano-Concerto-Kr/master/1244501 Does that suffice?
I do not know. Here are links but I cannot vouch for quality. I will send file URL privately.
https://music.apple.com/nz/album/magnus-lindberg-action-situation-signification-kraft/466328748
https://www.amazon.es/Magnus-Lindberg-Action-Situation-Signification/dp/B008LJIHO8
 

thefsb

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OK. I checked out the Nomos Alpha on the Qobuz link and it is, indeed, much clearer and more satisfying than the one I had heard before. Still, despite the clarity, it was quite close and airless. I could say the same for the file of Schlingen-Blängen that you sent. What characterizes these is that they are single instruments that are closely-miked. I note that the L/R meter levels track each other so closely that I suspect there is little difference between the channels and that implies that there's little stereo effect.
Let me suggest the Cantate Dominus recording that was suggested; it is simply awash with ambiance. For something that might be closer to your taste, I also suggest Magnus Lindberg's "Action - Situation - Signification" (Toimii Ensemble on Finlandia Records ‎– 1576-53372-2). Let me know.

1. Nomos Alpha. I have a different impression. The cello sounds natural in a real space and the instrument sounds terrific. There's plenty of room reverberation. It's a recording that guides me to concentrate on the music and the performance.

2. Schlingen-Blängen. To call an organ comprising so many pipes a single instrument seems a stretch. Yes, technically i guess that's true but the various sound producing parts of the instrument are so many and spread out in the modest church space. And I can't imagine how it could you'd get a mic close to it. Nor does it sound like that. It sounds to me like there was a stereo pair somewhere in the church. Listening has a strong, complex, swirling stereo effect that's deeply engrossing. With a good church organ, the audience is effectively sitting inside the instrument. This recording captures some of that, except in the real experienceeven small movements of the head would alter the effect. This is the sort of thing that makes stereo worth the trouble.

3. Pop Sicle. This is wonderful and unusual in part because of the way it has been recorded. I think it's genius. It sounds like the instrument amps and drums are in a real space. And it delivers the sense of the power of a really loud rock group comes over.

4. The more recent version of Nomos Alpha you found on Youtube. ffmpeg says "aac (LC) (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 44100 Hz, stereo, fltp, 96 kb/s (default)". There's a lot of nouse at the start (air?) and then it improves after a while as though the recording engineer adjusted something. There are ambient noises throughout like coughing. The cello doesn't sound nice. It's harsh. And sometimes during double-stop playing it sounds like the instrument has been a bit separated left-right, which is weird/unnatural. Perhaps it was recorded with two mics fairly close?

5. Cantate Domino, Oscars Motettkör, etc. It's good. Sounds very fine. The composition is new to me, a weighty expression of ecclesiastical authority. I didn't notice anything unusual w.r.t. spacial effects. The chorus is quite widely distributed L-R but it's not disturbing.

6. The Magnus Lindburg composition is also new to me. It's cool music. I don't perceive the sounds as coming from anywhere in front of, behind or wider than the speaker separation. But the separation L-R is extreme and the nature of sounds, especially early on with a lot of mid-high noise, makes that separation very clear. Honestly, it's excessive for me. I'd have to have my head pretty much in the piano to get such a wide separation effect. For example, around 20 seconds into the second track there's a tremolo on one high note on the piano that actually moves from left to right as its damping is changed - bizarre. And the balance among the instruments doesn't make sense. If my head is in the piano, how do the cello and voice get to be where they are? The cello sounds like it's right in front of me but really close and the singer is even closer. And so on. So it doesn't add up coherently for me.

7. Ali Farka Toure Talking Timbuktu is a lovely album. But it sounds like a multi-track studio effort and the mix represents the aesthetic choices of the engineer and/or producer (including the electric guitar's stereo chorus effect). That's normal and perfetly ok in my opinion but it's hard to know in such cases what should be the reference in our concept of fidelity.

I'll leave it at that for now. Out of time.
 

Kal Rubinson

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1. Nomos Alpha. I have a different impression...........................................................................................I'll leave it at that for now. Out of time.
Me, too but I plan to re-listen in the context of your comments which makes me curious about your system/setup. :)
 

Wombat

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On the one hand “soundstage” and “imaging” are to me among the many words in the audiophile lexicon that I just cannot get a grip on.

"How do we perceive the spaciousness of a recording..."? sounds more reasonable but don't we first have to make some assumptions about the recording? Like what it is of and how it was recorded?

Most of the recordings I have are stereo and most are not recordings of real acoustic events. Either way I have no expectations of perceiving spaciousness from them and I don't expect much to be gained from trying.

Same here.
 

Wombat

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OK. In an effort to understand the context of your query:
First, name your 2-3 favorite recordings, please. Then answer these questions:
1. Do you ever hear different voices/instruments differently placed laterally across the front from left to right?
2. Do you ever hear different voices/instruments differently placed in depth from nearer to farther back?
3. Are you ever aware of any reverberations, echos or other sounds surrounding the performers?
4. Can you tell us what your 2 speakers are, how are they positioned with regard to your listening position, how close are they to the wall behind them and any details of your room, such as size, surfaces and large contents?

Recreation of a "soundstage" is the most important advantage of a properly constructed stereo.

Unless one is aware of the original recording space and performance for comparison., the remote listener(s) will not know if they are getting a 'recreation' or rather an artificial construct, heavily influenced by studio trickery, speaker design and placement in the unrelated listening-space( various sizes and shapes) and its interactions. The unreferenced construct would be most common, IMHO.

Well, that's how I see it for stereo.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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Unless one is aware of the original recording space and performance for comparison., the remote listener(s) will not know if they are getting a 'recreation' or rather a construct, heavily influenced by studio trickery, speaker design and placement in the unrelated listening-space and its interaction.
To be sure, there is always uncertainty since, without experience/knowledge of the "original recording space and performance," we have only the recording to judge from. However, note the OPs context: "Most of the recordings I have are stereo and most are not recordings of real acoustic events. Either way I have no expectations of perceiving spaciousness from them and I don't expect much to be gained from trying. "
 

Wombat

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To be sure, there is always uncertainty since, without experience/knowledge of the "original recording space and performance," we have only the recording to judge from. However, note the OPs context: "Most of the recordings I have are stereo and most are not recordings of real acoustic events. Either way I have no expectations of perceiving spaciousness from them and I don't expect much to be gained from trying. "

Unfortunately, so many others make such claims, even wrt recordings made by several artists in various locations which are remote from each other and subsequently assembled in several mixing/mastering places.
 

Darkweb

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Unless one is aware of the original recording space and performance for comparison., the remote listener(s) will not know if they are getting a 'recreation' or rather an artificial construct, heavily influenced by studio trickery, speaker design and placement in the unrelated listening-space( various sizes and shapes) and its interactions. The unreferenced construct would be most common, IMHO.

Well, that's how I see it for stereo.
Just listen on a clock radio then, all the notes will be there for you.

I mean why even bother with this hobby at all right?
 

majingotan

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Unless one is aware of the original recording space and performance for comparison., the remote listener(s) will not know if they are getting a 'recreation' or rather an artificial construct, heavily influenced by studio trickery, speaker design and placement in the unrelated listening-space( various sizes and shapes) and its interactions. The unreferenced construct would be most common, IMHO.

Well, that's how I see it for stereo.

I'm pretty sure that 99% of recordings out there are mixed artificially. However, they do it so well that I perceive them as recreation. One such example is this Yuru Camp soundtrack where a small orchestra is recreated masterfully (IMO) through studio trickery

Capture.PNG
 

Wombat

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I only have a problem when soundstage is held up as a reproduction of something that never existed or an accurate reproduction of something that did.

In the first instance it is a delusion. In the second instance it is an illusion. Perceive it how one will, soundstage from a recording via loudspeakers is not reproduced reality.

It can be a pleasing effect/affect for some. Once the signal leaves the recording and enters the domain of the listener, the gear and the space it becomes mostly individual preference which does not relate in measurement terms to a firm reference.
 
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Darkweb

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I only have a problem when soundstage is held up as a reproduction of something that never existed or an accurate reproduction of something that did.

In the first instance it is a delusion. In the second instance it is an illusion. Perceive it how one will, soundstage from a recording via loudspeakers is not reproduced reality.
Sounds like a straw man to me, but I’m struggling here. I think that if the recording engineer went through the trouble of making a nicely layered and three dimensional recording (even artificially) it’s reasonable to want your system to reproduce that.

Enjoying the production value of the recording goes hand in hand with enjoying the music for me.
 

Wombat

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Sounds like a straw man to me, but I’m struggling here. I think that if the recording engineer went through the trouble of making a nicely layered and three dimensional recording (even artificially) it’s reasonable to want your system to reproduce that.

Enjoying the production value of the recording goes hand in hand with enjoying the music for me.

When you consider that you have achieved that aim can you verify it compared to the signal on the recording as matching what the recording sign-off person heard in their listening environment on their equipment?

When another listener in another environment with the same or different reproduction gear makes the same claim, will the sound in each situation match at the listening position?

If one is happy listening to an approximation of a confected aural spatial phenomenum, that is OK. Many similarly enjoy the experience of visual virtual reality or 3D TV. That doesn't make it real as some are wont to claim.
 
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Darkweb

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When you consider that you have achieved that aim can you verify it compared to the signal on the recording as matching what the recording sign-off person heard in their listening environment on their equipment?

When another listener in another environment with the same or different reproduction gear makes the same claim, will the sound in each situation match at the listening position?

If one is happy listening to an approximation of a confected aural spatial phenomenum, that is OK. Many similarly enjoy the experience of visual virtual reality or 3D TV. That doesn't make it real as some are wont to claim.
No dude, I simply enjoy it. It’s part of the joy of listening to music. It sounds a hell of a lot better and more enjoyable to me than a “flat” sounding reproduction of it from say a Sonos speaker.

And yes, most well set up systems will approximate the same layering and soundstage. And often as you go up the ladder of speakers you get the same general recreation of the soundstage only with more scale to image size/height and weight/impact to bass. However the presentations will differ depending on the speaker technology at play (say horns vs. electrostatic as an extreme example.)
 

Wombat

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As I said, if you are happy with the effect, enjoy it.

As for me, I don't take soundstage/imaging too seriously.

I could move my speakers and listening position around to optimise the delusion/illusion for each recording or have different equipment set-ups for particular recordings. Not likely. My speakers are set in their positions and I take the sound as it comes without analysing it endlessly.
 
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thefsb

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I'm pretty sure that 99% of recordings out there are mixed artificially. However, they do it so well that I perceive them as recreation.

There's nothing wrong with that but I argue that in such cases we are dealing with questions of subjective aesthetics rather than with questions of fidelity that can be approached objectively.

One such example is this Yuru Camp soundtrack where a small orchestra is recreated masterfully (IMO) through studio trickery

I'm curious to hear that now. Can't find it on Qobuz or Tidal.
 

Thomas_A

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As far as I know there has been some blind comparisons of a live band playing on a scene behind curtains and a high-quality recording of the same band/venue with stereo speakers.

Anyone know of these?
 

thefsb

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To be sure, there is always uncertainty since, without experience/knowledge of the "original recording space and performance," we have only the recording to judge from. However, note the OPs context: "Most of the recordings I have are stereo and most are not recordings of real acoustic events. Either way I have no expectations of perceiving spaciousness from them and I don't expect much to be gained from trying. "
There are a number of issues tangled together here. We might do well to try to separate them. Or maybe not if the freewheeling nature of forums is more fun.

But yes, one of the issues is that I still don't know what people are talking about when they talk about equipment and soundstages/imaging. I do not assert that they don't know what they are talking about, only that I cannot relate to it. We can attempt to bridge this gap independently of the other questions.
 

thefsb

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Me, too but I plan to re-listen in the context of your comments which makes me curious about your system/setup. :)
I've been using two playback systems in these experiments. The living room and at my computer.

While I was planning loudspeaker upgrades I made the diagram below of the living room. I took photos too. The furniture changed a little since then and I have one new photo showing the difference. I'm shy to share the photos with web spiders, bots and scrapers so if anyone wants to see them, just ask and I'll DM.

The diagram is to scale and the measurements on the top and side are in feet. The speakers are 7 feet apart. They flush with the flat front of the furnishings to the sides, a little like soffit-mounted main monitors. The rear of the speaker is 8 inches from the rear wall. I have listened at distances between about 10 and 15 feet. The room is quite complicated acoustically, not reverberant bot not dead. The photos should give some idea.

The computer system has near-field monitors 3 feet apart, on stands and flush with display panels. I can listen 3 feet away and farther by rolling my chair back. 3 feet is too close for most programs. This room is a bit live. Not as bad as it was.

Recordings 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7 sound good on both systems. With recording 5 I prefer to be farther away, which is reasonable given the chorus.
 

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Thomas_A

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One question:

Have you made any attempts to reduce SIBR effects from speaker wall, i.e. to make it acoustically "invisible"?
 
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