Soundstage and imaging

[Deleted member 21219]

As far as recordings go (not predators), it may be beneficial to watch this from 5:30 on:

 

[dlaloum]

What about the humongous amounts of phase distortion that musicians introduce in the studio? What about the diffusers that are used in many recording venues? What about the room reflection that are inherent in many recordings, such as concert halls?

Jim

Phase distortion in the studio basically kills natural perception of space - which is offset by an artificial impression of space provided by track manipulation.

Room reflections both in listening room and in recording/concert room, have the same properties - the direct signal sets the image - our ears are extremely sensitive to tiny changes of timing (phase) for the direct sound, we filter out the reflected sound, it contributes to an impression of space, and is a major contributor to the "sound" of a concert hall (acoustic, classical, traditional with minimal or no amplification - as soon as you start to have speakers all over the hall... it's a whole different ball game).

So does phase matter - in the artificial recordings where phase and timing has been massively messed with, probably not. But the very best recordings I have heard, the ones that really do sound acoustically "real" (when heard on a properly set up system) - yes, for those phase is very important.

Having said that - if your sticking with "minimum phase filter" based adjustments, and you set your system up for flat frequency response, you will have also adjusted your phase as the phase/frequency relationship is symmetrical.

So the closer to flat FR you are, the better your phase is - as long as the chain is run in minimum phase. The Room, and most natural phenomena are also minimum phase.... in a normal setup the only non minimum phase aspects tend to be linear phase EQ filters...(including their use potentially in the recording chain)

 

[dlaloum]

As far as recordings go (not predators), it may be beneficial to watch this from 5:30 on:

a couple of things here...

1) we know that our brain can and does differentiate between direct and reflected sound
2) this article by AmirM looks at the room response of a speaker or set of speakers, summing the direct and reflected sound - in that form, phase would indeed be pretty irrelevant - as each different reflection will be a different phase shift (ie: time delay) - making the whole thing rather irrelevant!!
3) Later on AmirM talks about differential phase, and our ears are indeed very highly sensitiv to differences in phase between the two ears - the point being made, is that if the phase treatment between the two channels is kept identical, then our ears will still pick up on phase differences between the two channels

Having said the above - consider this - in most natural (and analogue) resonant / acoustic systems - phase behaviour complies with minimum phase - so phase and frequency are in a fixed and symmetric relationship - an interesting property of that relationship, is that if Frequnecy is adjusted to maintain neutrality (flat frequency response) by using only minimum phase systems (eg standard crossovers, traditional analogue EQ, or digital minimum phase filters), then phase will also be corrected.

Given those symmetric properties, and the uncertainty (academically) with regards to phase impacts on imaging perception, why wouldn't you do your best to maintain phase correctness!?

 

[Short38]

Soundstage and imaging.

I think it’s the recording.

 

[STC]

But the very best recordings I have heard, the ones that really do sound acoustically "real" (when heard on a properly set up system) - yes, for those phase is very important.

Could you please give the album/track of the best recordings you referred to?

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Given those symmetric properties, and the uncertainty (academically) with regards to phase impacts on imaging perception, why wouldn't you do your best to maintain phase correctness!?

Would it be correct (or not) to say that phase only matters to the degree that it is audible to the listener?

Jim

 

[dlaloum]

Would it be correct (or not) to say that phase only matters to the degree that it is audible to the listener?

Jim

Agreed...

Along with - we know phase difference between the channels matters, and that we are very sensitive (ie: proven audibility) to phase difference between channels - no questions with regards to audibility in this case.
Also ... phase difference when applied equally to both channels in stereo can be difficult to identify -ie:questions remain with regards to degree of audibility in this case.

So - with questions remaining with regards to the audibility of phase overall - and its applicability in different cases, I prefer to opt for minimum phase methods as my default whenever applying EQ (if the option is available), on the grounds that I know it to be the minimum harm method... "first do no harm").

Overall I don't fuss too much about phase - but when I have the option to apply minimum phase filters or linear phase filters to correct acoustic aberrations (such as various resonances, mechanical, acoustic or electrical) - I will choose minimum phase filters on the grounds that when correcting F/R they will also correct phase.... and although the phase correction may be less audible... why not have it correct if you have the option?

Also worthy of note... some of the studies - in typical Harman style - focused on "preference" rather than audibility... and identified that phase has no impact on preference (at least within the studies).

 

[Suono]

Sarebbe corretto (o no) dire che la fase conta solo nella misura in cui è udibile dall'ascoltatore?

Credo la diffrazione ai bordi sia una distorsione di fase, questo è misurato e non tutti lo sentono. La risposta all'impulso viene misurata ma non tutti la percepiscono

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Credo la diffrazione ai bordi sia una distorsione di fase, questo è misurato e non tutti lo sentono. La risposta all'impulso viene misurata ma non tutti la percepiscono

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Jim

 

[Suono]

I believe diffraction at the edges is a phase distortion, this is measured and not everyone feels it. The response to the impulse is measured but not everyone perceives it

 

[Bren Derlin]

1.If It's impossible to know what's the real size of the soundstage In the recording unless you were in the studio
And if pretty much every system /spearkers have a different sized soundstage
How can you know if your system / speakers create an accurate soundstage ?

2. Is soundstage and imaging the same thing ?

Even in a studio, the musicians could all be performing in isolation rooms, so that may not prove anything for soundstage/imaging...

 

[Pearljam5000]

Even in a studio, the musicians could all be performing in isolation rooms, so that may not prove anything for soundstage/imaging...

Yeah so the question is how do you know if your system is faithful to the soundstage/imaging that's on the recording

 

[Bren Derlin]

Yeah so the question is how do you know if your system is faithful to the soundstage/imaging that's on the recording

You don't, unless you mixed the recording...

I personally don't worry about it. I just want a wide enveloping soundstage with great clarity and reasonably good instrument separation, so it doesn't sound like a mushy mess...

 

[tmuikku]

Yeah, listen with small enough stereo listening triangle That takes most of the local room away, and you hear what's on the recording. Local room disturbs it quite easily.

 

[juliangst]

I also have a question regarding soundstage:

Can in-wall/ baffle mounted speakers have the same soundstage as floorstanders that are 1-1.5m away from the front wall?
Does it even make sense to assume that there would be a difference in soundstage at all?

I always hear people claiming that in walls are inferior to normal speakers when it comes to the spatiality and soundstage but I don't understand why.
The front wall should only effect bass because it's omnidirectional.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Yeah, listen with small enough stereo listening triangle That takes most of the local room away, and you hear whas on the recorging. Local room just disturbs it quite easily.

Doesn't it make the soundstage artificially small ?

 

[RayDunzl]

Doesn't it make the soundstage artificially small ?

Not in my experience.

 

[Suono]

Sento sempre persone affermare che i muri sono inferiori ai normali altoparlanti quando si tratta di spazialità e palcoscenico, ma non capisco perché.
La parete frontale dovrebbe influenzare solo i bassi perché è omnidirezionale.

it will depend a lot on the quality and amplitude of the dispersion (polar pattern) of the loudspeaker and on the acoustic treatment of the wall behind the loudspeakers

 

[tmuikku]

Doesn't it make the soundstage artificially small ?

It can, lack of strong lateral reflections seems to make stereo sound constrained roughly in between speaker but you just have to adjust the listening triangle where it doesn't matter, where the sound appears "natural" to you, not too wide, not too narrow. I have my speakers roughly at 45deg from media plane, bit wider than a equilateral triangle nevertheless, right where I seem to like it for some reason. But, now there is very big sound, sound that's in the recording, local room turns into envelopment and the recording comes through with clarity. Soundstage can be big or in your face dry depending on what is on the recording, there seems to be 3D kind of quality to the perception when system and local room doesn't break it.

Some recordings seem to be engineered with long listening distance, because they can sound quite weird when listening close enough. But it is really fun to really zoom inside the sound, just by getting closer to speakers. If its too weird, like too dramatic panning going on, lean back and enjoy more laid back hazier and roomier sound

I wrote about this stuff more elaborately last week on this very thread, check it out if you wish. There is a way to distinguish between the "close enough" and "too far" stereo sound, separated by audible critical distance where perception seems to shift between the two. In my opinion everyone should know both sides of it, how they sound and which one you like. This is prerequisite for any discussion about imaging or soundstage. If you don't know both sides that they exists and how they sound like, its very hard to have discussion about the stuff because both parties could be listening at different distance and having exactly different view and preference on things and no common understanding is possible.

 

[Killingbeans]

Does it even make sense to assume that there would be a difference in soundstage at all?

Don't think so. I imagine they confuse listening distance and toe-in or the lack thereof with something that's inherent to the speaker type itself.

I could be wrong though.