How do we perceive “soundstage” and “imaging”?

[Snarfie]

For some time I'm listening to live performance's recordings relative more from specific venues different artist. Reason IMO is that live performance in average capture more atmosphere than studio albums because of the interaction with the audience the venue an yes the Soundstage imaging (which is part of the atmosphere). Did visit in the 90ties some jazz club's in NYC like the blue-note an The Village Vanguard from a reproduction point of view both have limited size so i guess it is more likely to reproduce the sound the atmosphere that i remember a bit more easily. Regarding the Village Vanguard i have 3 recordings 1 differ from the other 2 quite the Dexter Gordon - Home coming an Kenny Burell - Live at the Village Vanguard sound more or less the same regarding atmosphere the best. However Bill Evans - Sunday at the Vanguard was recorded such that instruments where located left an right speaker mostly so considerable less atmosphere IMO. Soundstage imaging has so much to do with so many factors think Mic's is one of the most important one's i guess. A studio album i enjoyd lately is the remaster of Jimmy Handrix - Electric Lady land 2018. Have a listen to Voodoo Chile the first one (not slight return) on the album man you don't need stuff to smoke the imaging is taking care for you

 

[Thomas_A]

With respect to range/depth cues it appears that the research is limited. I started a thread about this in a Swedish forum and got a couple of links. So what do you think about the research?

https://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/cipic/spatial-sound/tutorial/psychoacoustics-of-spatial-hearing/#range
https://www.academia.edu/7275281/EN..._WITH_DYNAMIC_CUES_RELATED_TO_SOURCE_POSITION

 

[Kal Rubinson]

How do you relate the concert hall recordings wrt particular seated positions, therein, given the mics are set up on-stage?

Are they? Most of the recordings I prize and enjoy are multichannel and are based on suspended arrays which extend from the stage back out into the hall.

Still, there is little I can add in the way of science, since there are no real standards for such arrays, for their balancing and for how the the recordings are mastered. The entire recording process is based not on capturing an exact and referenced image of the sonic event but one that the producers construct in an effort to convey their experience.

That said, I have a number of MCH recordings in alternate mikings which are audibly different but sufficiently similar to distinguish them from recordings made in a different concert hall.

 

[Thomas_A]

There are several questions discussed at the same time here. MCH recordings represents the model to be transferred to the event, while the lounge model/stereo is more of the venue fused to your room.. With respect to percieve "depth" in the sound stage it appears to be the least understood scientifically.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

There are several questions discussed at the same time here.

Yup. That's what happens around here.

MCH recordings represents the model to be transferred to the event, while the lounge model/stereo is more of the venue fused to your room.

You can do both with MCH but it's hard to get the entire orchestra into your room with stereo.

With respect to percieve "depth" in the sound stage it appears to be the least understood scientifically.

Much less so in MCH.

 

[Thomas_A]

Yup. That's what happens around here.
You can do both with MCH but it's hard to get the entire orchestra into your room with stereo.
Much less so in MCH.

Agreed, but there is a catch regarding what listening model you prefer. You can optimize setup for the lounge model and have the MCH as reasonable option. Or the other way around, meaning at damped room all the way with multiple surround speakers.

 

[Wombat]

Are they? Most of the recordings I prize and enjoy are multichannel and are based on suspended arrays which extend from the stage back out into the hall.

Still, there is little I can add in the way of science, since there are no real standards for such arrays, for their balancing and for how the the recordings are mastered. The entire recording process is based not on capturing an exact and referenced image of the sonic event but one that the producers construct in an effort to convey their experience.

That said, I have a number of MCH recordings in alternate mikings which are audibly different but sufficiently similar to distinguish them from recordings made in a different concert hall.

Granted. I was still thinking of stereo.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Agreed, but there is a catch regarding what listening model you prefer. You can optimize setup for the lounge model and have the MCH as reasonable option. Or the other way around, meaning at damped room all the way with multiple surround speakers.

Is there? Play the recording in its format with the requisite number of channels/speakers in the proper array. I get both listening modes without moving anything.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Granted. I was still thinking of stereo. View attachment 44628

You are not alone.

 

[Wombat]

You are not alone.

I think the majority of discussion re HiFi audio soundstage comes from 2.0/2.1 system listeners. Surround sound, whilst a significant advance in spatial recognition, is still the outlier.

 

[Thomas_A]

Is there? Play the recording in its format with the requisite number of channels/speakers in the proper array. I get both listening modes without moving anything.

The ideal setup means that all walls should be heavily damped. The lounge model only the front wall.

 

[audiophile]

The ideal setup means that all walls should be heavily damped.

From my experience overdampening leads to huge high frequency roll off at the listening position. Not something I wanted, so I had to remove some acoustic panels to get better FR curve

 

[Thomas_A]

From my experience overdampening leads to huge high frequency roll off at the listening position. Not something I wanted, so I had to remove some acoustic panels to get better FR curve

Yes, that is correct, aka the lounge model, but in the surround model you replace the side walls with e.g. 6+6 surround speakers. You will have ambient sound directly from the speakers.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I think the majority of discussion re HiFi audio soundstage comes from 2.0/2.1 system listeners. Surround sound, whilst a significant advance in spatial recognition, is still the outlier.

I was acknowledging that.

 

[musicaddict]

On the one hand “soundstage” and “imaging” are to me among the many words in the audiophile lexicon that I just cannot get a grip on.

"How do we perceive the spaciousness of a recording..."? sounds more reasonable but don't we first have to make some assumptions about the recording? Like what it is of and how it was recorded?

.

Yes

Soundstage is all in the recording method, and imaging in the mix or recording method in the case of direct to stereo. Van Morrison - Moondance, great soundstage and imaging in any speaker and amp you listen to it.

 

[Wombat]

Yes

Soundstage is all in the recording method, and imaging in the mix or recording method in the case of direct to stereo. Van Morrison - Moondance, great soundstage and imaging in any speaker and amp you listen to it.

Van was apparently, remotely placed in a booth;

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/van-morrison-moondance

This is why I have trouble with soundstage/imaging as being generally meaningful in stereo(or mono) recordings, and likewise with mono or stereo remastered for surround releases.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Van was apparently, remotely placed in a booth;

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/van-morrison-moondance

This is why I have trouble with soundstage as being meaningful in stereo, and with mono or stereo remastered for surround releases as meaningful.

Not only that, but soundstage was not listened to during the recording/mixing stage. All recordings were listened to in 3 speaker mono because they believed mono let them balance FR better than stereo.

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/van-morrison-moondance

This wasn't uncommon in the 60s and 70's. Many thought you did better to monitor mixes in mono, and make decisions there.

 

[Willem]

Interesting contributions by Harbeth's designer Alan Shaw on soundstage, here: https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup...gineering-irrelevant-or-not.79741/#post-82110

 

[Thomas_A]

Regarding depth - can we conclude that the contribution of direct vs reflected sound is related to depth and that in turn will affect the frequency response of a source that is close vs distant in a room? In the recording close-mic voices would be closer to us than distant ones, as for instruments. This also means that general"image position"/depth in your room would be related to the speaker dispersion characteristics?

 

[Thomas_A]

An example of studio recording where the singer is in quite far forward in the sound stage (or what do you think?):