Home theater speaker selections?

[Bugal1998]

I’m currently planning to finish ~2300 sq. ft. of my basement, of which ~550 sq ft (~19’Wx29’Lx8.5’H) will be for a dedicated hometheater and listening room. 2-channel listening is the priority, and necessary trade-offs will always be in favor of 2-channel performance. Front L/R duties will be handled by my existing JBL M2s. The remaining speaker selections I’m considering are outlined below (group input welcome!)... Unlike the L/R channels, my goal for surround sound is bang-for-the-buck.

The JBL SCL line of speakers are rather expensive, though the in-wall design is convenient... but they’re a LOT of money to outfit a Dolby Atmos home theater. I had a demo of a full SCL theater at a local dealer, and frankly I thought it was a mediocre experience. Not sure I blame the speakers, but they didn’t seem special enough to my ears for the price. I also find myself challenged to differentiate the quality of speakers in a multi-channel system; personal experience and in Dr. Toole I trust.

Subs:
Quad JBL 5628 (2000-2500 watts per cab), or ?? (one sub in each corner of the room)
I’m hoping the 5628 represents maximum quality and Impact in the audible range. I’m less concerned about the sub 20hz content if it requires trade-offs in the audible frequencies. The bass quality/articulation of the M2 is what is steering me toward the 5628; I’m assuming the Sub18 with the same driver as the 5628s offers bass quality on par or better then the M2, and then I’m assuming the 5628 with the same drivers and similar frequency response will be on par with the Sub18 for less money... yeah I know, that’s a LOT of assumptions.

Center:
JBL M2, used JBL 880 Array, or ???

Front wides, sides, surrounds, and heights:
JBL 9300, or JBL AC18/26, or JBL 8320 (Points against 8320- I lean toward compression drivers for consistency, and these have an x-curve high frequency roll off that doesn’t seem appropriate for home theater and modern Atmos sound tracks... is that a proper conclusion?)

Would specific side/surround/height options above be more or less appropriate for different duties in the theater? (i.e. should I mix and match? If so, where and why?)

Ceiling speakers:
JBL SCS 328, or ???

Am I headed down a reasonable path here or am I way off base? Thanks for any perspectives!

 

[Stephan]

Since no one else jumped on this yet...

Subs: Are you married to JBL? If not, try Ascendo Immersive Audio subs, I think those are the ones to beat right now.

Center: M2, you really want to match your LCRs.

Front wides: push for 28/26 or 28/95? Depending on your room and seating area.

Surrounds: 9300 or 9310? Or 18/26. Maybe 28/26 if you want to push it.

Ceiling: SCS8? Coax driver, good horizontal and vertical dispersion (120°x120°).

 

[Asinus]

IMO Four 5628 seem like overkill for that room. A SUB18 is problematic enough to place and move around, the 5628 is the size of a small fridge. I was in the same dilemma and opted spending a bit more on the Sub18 after thinking of the logistics of moving the box and then moving and placing the sub.

At the output levels those JBLs are capable of (130 to 140 dB peaks), what you want is an even response among several seats, not having more SPL, If two subs cannot even the response maybe four smaller would be better suited.

 

[RayDunzl]

Am I headed down a reasonable path here or am I way off base?

Reasonable for you?

Maybe.

Beyond my aspirations, though.

---

How much screen will you have?

 

[Bugal1998]

Since no one else jumped on this yet...

Subs: Are you married to JBL? If not, try Ascendo Immersive Audio subs, I think those are the ones to beat right now.

Center: M2, you really want to match your LCRs.

Front wides: push for 28/26 or 28/95? Depending on your room and seating area.

Surrounds: 9300 or 9310? Or 18/26. Maybe 28/26 if you want to push it.

Ceiling: SCS8? Coax driver, good horizontal and vertical dispersion (120°x120°).

Thanks for the feedback!

Nope, not married to JBL subs, but I am married to high fidelity bass. Ascendo looks like an interesting brand, but I haven’t found any real information about them like pricing or even specs... need to keep looking. In the absence of other information, I’m interested in what makes you believe they’re the subs to beat?

M2 is the logical choice... I’m trying to avoid an acoustically transparent screen which would mean a horizontal M2. If that’s still the better option than a non-M2 with ideal orientation then I’m fine with an M2.

On the fronts/wides I was looking at the 28/26 originally but the output of the 18/26 seemed adequate for less $$$. Is the issue dispersion? Fidelity? Keeping up with the M2s? With multiple rows of seating and a wide(ish) room I’m leaning toward wide dispersion speakers for more even coverage (so probably the 120X60s over the 90x50s).

I thought the 9310 seemed excessive in my room size... Of course I’m also not sure if the pattern of the 9300 series is appropriate for a less raked seating arrangement. And crossing over a 10” above 2khz raises questions about off axis response (can’t find measurements). The 18/26 28/26 line has reasonable off axis performance. They’re also more expensive... Decisions, decisions.

I believe the SCS8 is the same— or very similar— speaker as the SCS 328... both are 8” coaxial compression driver speakers with 120x120 dispersion... And the SCS 328 provides more clearance between the lister and speaker and the speaker and the floor by recessing into the ceiling. I would lose the ability to aim them, but that’s a trade-off I think I’ll have to live with.

 

[Bugal1998]

IMO Four 5628 seem like overkill for that room. A SUB18 is problematic enough to place and move around, the 5628 is the size of a small fridge. I was in the same dilemma and opted spending a bit more on the Sub18 after thinking of the logistics of moving the box and then moving and placing the sub.

At the output levels those JBLs are capable of (130 to 140 dB peaks), what you want is an even response among several seats, not having more SPL, If two subs cannot even the response maybe four smaller would be better suited.

As I mentioned in another post, I’m not married to JBL subs... but— rational or not— they kinda feel like a safe option.

I don’t listen super loud, and I’m not a bass nut... but my goal is effortless sound, and I’ve found that high fidelity systems with abundant overhead sound better at all levels. How does the Sub18 do at quiet to moderate levels? And how do you like it overall?

Rythmik subs have a reputation for fidelity, but they’re only rated up to 90hz (per manufacturer and confirmed in data-bass testing), and the LFE channel in movies has content up to 120hz. [Edit: Rythmik's LFE input enables higher frequency response for movies, only the non-LFE input has a built-in filter at 90HZ. ]

I’m definitely curious about Power Sound Audio and maybe JTR, which could provide smaller subs, but I don’t know about the sound quality in the audible range. I‘d have ~$2800 invested in each 5628 including amplification... which is tough pricepoint when looking at other brands.

I agree the size is intimidating, but I have hand trucks!
I agree they take a lot of space, but I have plenty of room
I agree they‘re like mini-fridges, but they’ll be concealed in all four corners
I agree frequency response trumps output, but four subs is four subs... so what would the extra output hurt?
I agree they’ll have stupid amounts of excess output, but price is reasonable compared to many other options

HOWEVER... If I could have high fidelity in the audible range and lower in-room extension, and/or a smaller size or lower investment, I would be very interested.

Input on experiences with JTR, Power Sound Audio, and any other brands I may be unaware of would be of interest.

 

[Bugal1998]

Reasonable for you?

Maybe.

Beyond my aspirations, though.

---

How much screen will you have?

I’m thinking an 11-11.5’ wide screen in an HDTV or constant area aspect ratio. A 2.35 screen is out due to width limitations between the L&R speakers making screen height inadequate.

Priorities for the room are reference level performance across the board, but where trade-offs are required, the order of importance is:
1) 2-channel audio performance (This will be 80-90% of the use, so L&R speakers probably can’t go behind an acoustically transparent screen without significant compromise)
2) Front projection image quality (woven screens are out, center channel below the screen is in, dark walls and decor are in)
3) Surround sound performance (a rather distant third priority, hence looking at the far more cost effective JBL pro speakers vs their synthesis line)
4) Room decor (It needs to be welcoming and nice, but not looking to throw tons of money to make a pretty room where the lights are always off)

We’re foregoing formal theater seating and going for a more casual media room feel.

 

[Asinus]

As I mentioned in another post, I’m not married to JBL subs... but— rational or not— they kinda feel like a safe option.

I don’t listen super loud, and I’m not a bass nut... but my goal is effortless sound, and I’ve found that high fidelity systems with abundant overhead sound better at all levels. How does the Sub18 do at quiet to moderate levels? And how do you like it overall?

Rythmik subs have a reputation for fidelity, but they’re only rated up to 90hz (per manufacturer and confirmed in data-bass testing), and the LFE channel in movies has content up to 120hz.

I’m definitely curious about Power Sound Audio and maybe JTR, which could provide smaller subs, but I don’t know about the sound quality in the audible range. I‘d have ~$2800 invested in each 5628 including amplification... which is tough pricepoint when looking at other brands.

I agree the size is intimidating, but I have hand trucks!
I agree they take a lot of space, but I have plenty of room
I agree they‘re like mini-fridges, but they’ll be concealed in all four corners
I agree frequency response trumps output, but four subs is four subs... so what would the extra output hurt?
I agree they’ll have stupid amounts of excess output, but price is reasonable compared to many other options

HOWEVER... If I could have high fidelity in the audible range and lower in-room extension, and/or a smaller size or lower investment, I would be very interested.

Input on experiences with JTR, Power Sound Audio, and any other brands I may be unaware of would be of interest.

As you guessed, the bass on the Sub18 is effortless even at moderate levels, and when cranked up it can rattle small objects in the room, and I drive it with a bridged XLS 1502 so it is "only" 1kW of amplification.

See below my raw in-room measurements of the Sub18. As you can see, ignoring the room modes, it is pretty even from 20 to 200 Hz, the steeper cutoff below 20 is due to the amp hi-pass.

I don't think it is cost effective, but once you EQ the JBLs I don't see how it could get better in the audible band.

 

[Bugal1998]

As you guessed, the bass on the Sub18 is effortless even at moderate levels, and when cranked up it can rattle small objects in the room, and I drive it with a bridged XLS 1502 so it is "only" 1kW of amplification.

See below my raw in-room measurements of the Sub18. As you can see, ignoring the room modes, it is pretty even from 20 to 200 Hz, the steeper cutoff below 20 is due to the amp hi-pass.

I don't think it is cost effective, but once you EQ the JBLs I don't see how it could get better in the audible band.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Asinus. With the steep discounts that can sometimes be found and combined with used/b-stock amplification the math changes a bit... but then it’s also not apples to apples.

In addition to JTR, and Power Sound, I somehow forgot about SVS. I have more research to do on this front... and maybe I need to take advantage of some in home trial options that are available.

 

[datrumole]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Asinus. With the steep discounts that can sometimes be found and combined with used/b-stock amplification the math changes a bit... but then it’s also not apples to apples.

In addition to JTR, and Power Sound, I somehow forgot about SVS. I have more research to do on this front... and maybe I need to take advantage of some in home trial options that are available.

you talked about effortless sound from your subs, i have seen a lot of people move away from big, deep, heavy subs and move into fast, light, PA style subs. you need more of them, or bigger ones comparatively but the overall output just slams effortlessly with that quick sound. if you can afford the space, worth looking into. might be diving too far into the diy realm

 

[Bugal1998]

you talked about effortless sound from your subs, i have seen a lot of people move away from big, deep, heavy subs and move into fast, light, PA style subs. you need more of them, or bigger ones comparatively but the overall output just slams effortlessly with that quick sound. if you can afford the space, worth looking into. might be diving too far into the diy realm

Thanks, Datrumole. Does the 5628 fit the 'fast and light' criteria? I assume yes based on JBL pairing the same drivers alongside the M2 (whose low-end I consider effortless) in the Sub18... If not, I'm intrigued and need to learn more.

I've never heard other subs sound the way the M2s sound, and that's why the other sub brands weren't at the top of my list originally.

 

[Stephan]

Nope, not married to JBL subs, but I am married to high fidelity bass. Ascendo looks like an interesting brand, but I haven’t found any real information about them like pricing or even specs... need to keep looking. In the absence of other information, I’m interested in what makes you believe they’re the subs to beat?

M2 is the logical choice... I’m trying to avoid an acoustically transparent screen which would mean a horizontal M2. If that’s still the better option than a non-M2 with ideal orientation then I’m fine with an M2.

On the fronts/wides I was looking at the 28/26 originally but the output of the 18/26 seemed adequate for less $$$. Is the issue dispersion? Fidelity? Keeping up with the M2s? With multiple rows of seating and a wide(ish) room I’m leaning toward wide dispersion speakers for more even coverage (so probably the 120X60s over the 90x50s).

I thought the 9310 seemed excessive in my room size... Of course I’m also not sure if the pattern of the 9300 series is appropriate for a less raked seating arrangement. And crossing over a 10” above 2khz raises questions about off axis response (can’t find measurements). The 18/26 28/26 line has reasonable off axis performance. They’re also more expensive... Decisions, decisions.

I believe the SCS8 is the same— or very similar— speaker as the SCS 328... both are 8” coaxial compression driver speakers with 120x120 dispersion... And the SCS 328 provides more clearance between the lister and speaker and the speaker and the floor by recessing into the ceiling. I would lose the ability to aim them, but that’s a trade-off I think I’ll have to live with.

Ascendo is a very established brand in Europe. They're based in Germany. Their home theater line is jaw-dropping, up there with the best. They've recently found a US distributor, so somewhat new. There are a couple of youtube videos of recent installations and an interview with the engineer behind it from Germany and the US distributor here:

. Can't say much about US pricing, so you'd have to ask. Their 50" infrasonic sub is insane, both performance and price. The 15" to 18" are reasonably priced.
Why I believe they're great... I'm a bit of a bass junkie, always have been and my previous experience always was to pick max. output with low frequency or fast and accurate musical performance with much less output. Few subs can provide both and I think the Ascendo can. They can play very loud, very deep and are still super fast and accurate. Short of custom DSP based options (Merovinger, etc.) I've never seen this before.
Maybe you can get a demo somewhere and decide for yourself. It's just something I recommend to check out.

So no AT screen. Then maybe look at the SCL-2 and mount it horizontally? Or the SCL-3? They're probably the best match for M2s. As far as pricing goes the SCL-2 shouldn't make a difference in comparison to the M2. As for AC28 vs AC18, it all depends on how much output you need. Same for 9300 vs 9300. This depends entirely on your seating distance and how far the seats are away. 93x0 are classical surround speakers, mounted a little higher and slightly tilted downwards. The ACx8 are better for wides, you could mount them the same height as you position the M2. 93x0 can work as well, if you mount and tilt them (they're wider with 16" vs under 10" though).

Wider dispersion for more coverage is a good thing, just have to be aware that this might also cause more reflection from the side walls. At least for the front speakers. I've found it's not that much of an issue for surrounds (vertical dispersion might be).

SCS8 and 328 could be very similar, yes. So it's more a question of ideal coverage if you can't aim those at the listening positions.

 

[richard12511]

I would definitely try to find a way to make another M2 work as the center channel. Center channel is by far the most important speaker. Way more important than Left and Right.

 

[Bugal1998]

Thanks again, @Stephan. Your description of Ascendo subs sounds ideal, so I'll keep digging. Their giant sub looks awesome, is probably more than my total media room budget.

Reasoning on the rest of the system makes sense, too.

 

[Bugal1998]

Quick update for any who may be interested...

JBL 5628-

I bought a pair of 5628 subs that I‘m powering with a Crown I-tech 5000HD (2500 watts into 4 ohms per cab). They’ll fill the room with round, deep, soft, and smooth bass... no bloat, just tight clean bass (at least to my ears)... and then an instant later pound you in the chest and make your vision feel like it’s blurring. Unreal. All the other subs I’ve owned would draw attention to themselves if they were run a little too hot, but with the 5628 I’ve bumped the bass by 10db, and they don’t sound like subs set too high... It just sounds like more tight musical bass was added to the mix, even on acoustic instruments (except upright bass which tends to sound boomy by nature).

Sure, it would be wonderful if they played about 8-10hz deeper, but not at the expense of what they do from 25-120hz. I have a deep and wide null in my temporary listening space right at 20hz, but I think the -10db point in my room would be closer to 20hz than the 18hz spec’d by JBL. My close mic’ing of the 5628 and M2 driver(s)/port(s) suggests the M2 is actually tuned slightly lower than the 5628 (but the 5628 bass quality and quantity is on another level vs the M2). The output right down to 25hz seems limitless in every scenario I’ve put them through (I do value my hearing so I haven’t probed for the actual limits).

Current plan: Add two more 5628s to smooth the frequency response in the room. Then I have a space that could serve as an infinite baffle, so I may put two to four 24” drivers in there to cover the 5-25hz range and never look back.


JBL AC2826-

Spent a couple weeks listening to them as my L/R speakers (crossed over to subs) with the requisite Crown DCi amp and tunings loaded. Tremendous output, good impact in the mid-bass, definitely needs EQ, and not as refined as the M2s (no surprise). Width of the ‘soundstage’ was more constrained, and plenty of details seemed a little hazy and obscured (again, no surprise)... But they would make an outstanding surround speaker for a high-impact theater. Unless the newest JBL in-wall/ceiling speakers (SCL 6 and 7) can offer better performance I’m inclined toward the 2826; easier to acoustically isolate the room without in-wall speakers, and they can be aimed at the listening position. They offer a LOT more output than the 708p, but they seem a bit less refined.

 

[Bugal1998]

As you guessed, the bass on the Sub18 is effortless even at moderate levels, and when cranked up it can rattle small objects in the room, and I drive it with a bridged XLS 1502 so it is "only" 1kW of amplification.

See below my raw in-room measurements of the Sub18. As you can see, ignoring the room modes, it is pretty even from 20 to 200 Hz, the steeper cutoff below 20 is due to the amp hi-pass.
View attachment 90192
I don't think it is cost effective, but once you EQ the JBLs I don't see how it could get better in the audible band.

The 5628 in my room rolls off more sharply and about 5-6 hz sooner than your Sub18. If you’re interested I can post independent close mic measurements of the driver and port response(s)... I‘d be interested in seeing the Sub18 measurements too if you’re able and willing,

 

[Asinus]

I suspect the room helps that last stretch because both subs are above 20Hz @-3dB (4pi) , but if you can play with the position/phase of both subs or put some filters you can probably get a foothold below 20.

Given that you probably have a lot of dynamic range headroom you could try a PEQ on the infrasonic range and get away with it, although depending on the processor getting a good filter that low can get tricky.
There is a section in Dr. Toole's book where he discusses placement of two subs to counteract nulls if you want to go old-fashion.

I will see if over the weekend I can take some measurements and I am definitely interested in the 5628 data.

 

[Asinus]

Here are some REW measurements with a UMIK-1 placed about 2 in of the front plane, centered to the dustcap of the driver or the middle of the port with a stand, the mic had the wind screen put on.
Port

Driver

 

[Bugal1998]

Thanks, Asinus... I wasn’t able to grab my measurements this weekend, but hope to do so today. I assume your measurements include the built-in low frequency rolloff of the amp as well?

 

[Asinus]

I assume your measurements include the built-in low frequency rolloff of the amp as well?

Correct, I use a bridged XLS1502 and there is no control of the high-pass filter. It is always on so any measurement will have that rolloff.