HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[Sebby]

There really is no upside to Hifiman commenting on these unless they have hard evidence this unit is a dud.

I would guess Susvara sales in 2024 will be not much different to 2023. If Amir had given this a double golfing panther I hazard a guess that wouldn't have shifted the needle either.

Both on Head HI-FI and here if I'm not mistaken some producers have answered questions, clarified some design choices and clarified many misunderstandings.
It always seems to have gone well...

 

[Rhamnetin]

I'm not saying that there isn't the possibility that in the end it turns out to be a driver randomly placed in the shell, but until you have a certain answer you should leave the door open. I'm very curious to know these things.
For example, I don't find the FR on the Susvara terrible and this is because HIFIMAN chases that type of FR (he has always declared it) and not the Harman one. The HE400se isn't much different, but it sounds great even without EQ. I don't understand all this scandal that is forming around...
Today I received the Zero 2 (one of the last comments in the dedicated post is mine) and I had only praise for them, yet after hours spent with them, I now find myself with the Final F7200 that have this FR and with instrumental and vocal music for me are the best (FR and EQ below).
The data obtained are used in a less than "intelligent" way and with too much closed-mindedness (in every place in the world that I have seen the engineers are all the same! It's a joke...) and this is how anti-science is cultivated and teams are created who fight throwing shit at each other but getting nothing out of it.

Yes, the HE1000s all have a similar FR. Or at least some of them... I think there are 4 versions now? I've never listened to Susvara, but my impressions of the HE1000 was that they sounded more "distant" than other headphones and that was what they're going for. I didn't dislike them, but they weren't to my taste either.

Prime example of what not to do: manufacturer busting in here calling ASR full of insane groupthink.

Insane groupthink is also what they're after, just on a different spectrum. There's a lot of it in the audiophile world.

 

[Sengin]

frequency response is not nearly a complete description of your headphones

Right - and I don't think anyone is saying it is, after all Amir shows more than one chart per review. It is a large part of the "description" of headphones, though. If I'm looking at a headphone review here and wondering if I should get excited over it, I look at the FR first (as well as how different the left channel's FR is to the right channel's). Then distortion - after all I want my headphones to reproduce sound, I don't want them adding it or changing it in any way. Now group delay to cover some weirdness and phasing. If they are all great, even if not perfect, then it is very likely I can EQ it to my preferred target without distortion. If you only look at FR you are actively ignoring other important aspects of the headphone.

Coverpage:
which can be intuitively understood because you can't EQ one headphone to sound exactly like another headphone. This lets you know that a lot of the sound is not being described by the frequency response curve.

Why do you think this is not possible? I am not saying you can EQ any one specific headphone to match any other headphone, but provided the distortion of both headphones are low and the group delay is fine, you can get really close (and the more filters you can add the better). I'd even bet there are certain matches you can make where the differences would be inaudible - so tiny they wouldn't be noticeable (if that's what you mean by 'exactly like').

To step in front of your next question, after looking at the group delay for the susvara, no I would not say that you can EQ the 7Hz x Crinacle Zero:2 to sound like the susvara because there's a lot going on with the group delay, and if it's related to phase then good luck. You need more than EQ on such a headphone. But mess with some all pass filters in the highs on the Crinacle to mess with phase and maybe...

I am honestly curious if you could EQ those Crincles to sound like the Dan Clark E3. The EQ needed for the crincle in the lows is kinda weird - maybe you'd need a tilt shelf filter? And obviously you'd need to reconcile the difference in over-ear vs IEM, but this is just an example. But really, isn't this what we are trying to do? We want to take a headphone and match the FR to our preferred target. We take another headphone, and we want to match our target. Given that the headphones are of good enough quality to both reproduce sound without adding anything, and we use enough EQ to get within X% of our FR target in all frequencies, aren't we effectively trying to make one headphone sound like another?

If you don't want to use your own FR target but instead want to use the headphone creator's target, then that will vary per-headphone. Or if you can't EQ your headphones (or don't want to), this also doesn't apply, but it means you are even more tied to the FR of the headphone (that is, you have to like its FR to then like the headphone).

 

[Sebby]

Right - and I don't think anyone is saying it is, after all Amir shows more than one chart per review. It is a large part of the "description" of headphones, though. If I'm looking at a headphone review here and wondering if I should get excited over it, I look at the FR first (as well as how different the left channel's FR is to the right channel's). Then distortion - after all I want my headphones to reproduce sound, I don't want them adding it or changing it in any way. Now group delay to cover some weirdness and phasing. If they are all great, even if not perfect, then it is very likely I can EQ it to my preferred target without distortion. If you only look at FR you are actively ignoring other important aspects of the headphone.


Why do you think this is not possible? I am not saying you can EQ any one specific headphone to match any other headphone, but provided the distortion of both headphones are low and the group delay is fine, you can get really close (and the more filters you can add the better). I'd even bet there are certain matches you can make where the differences would be inaudible - so tiny they wouldn't be noticeable (if that's what you mean by 'exactly like').

To step in front of your next question, after looking at the group delay for the susvara, no I would not say that you can EQ the 7Hz x Crinacle Zero:2 to sound like the susvara because there's a lot going on with the group delay, and if it's related to phase then good luck. You need more than EQ on such a headphone. But mess with some all pass filters in the highs on the Crinacle to mess with phase and maybe...

I am honestly curious if you could EQ those Crincles to sound like the Dan Clark E3. The EQ needed for the crincle in the lows is kinda weird - maybe you'd need a tilt shelf filter? And obviously you'd need to reconcile the difference in over-ear vs IEM, but this is just an example. But really, isn't this what we are trying to do? We want to take a headphone and match the FR to our preferred target. We take another headphone, and we want to match our target. Given that the headphones are of good enough quality to both reproduce sound without adding anything, and we use enough EQ to get within X% of our FR target in all frequencies, aren't we effectively trying to make one headphone sound like another?

If you don't want to use your own FR target but instead want to use the headphone creator's target, then that will vary per-headphone. Or if you can't EQ your headphones (or don't want to), this also doesn't apply, but it means you are even more tied to the FR of the headphone (that is, you have to like its FR to then like the headphone).

 

[Lalus]

Sorry for my ignorance, I'm not really familiar with this software, and ,our language. But is this an eq that tries to make the HE400se sound like the susvara?

Is that even possible? I don't think a headphones sound is just only FR, so I don't think that's possible 100%

 

[Sebby]

Sorry for my ignorance, I'm not really familiar with this software, and ,our language. But is this an eq that tries to make the HE400se sound like the susvara?

Is that even possible? I don't think a headphones sound is just only FR, so I don't think that's possible 100%

I'm perfectly agree with you, but only FR can give you a good deal of guidance.
Now, I have no idea how the data is collected by this software, but on some headphones/IEMs it comes very close and on others it only distantly resembles it, but it's fun to use. This is Morphit which is on UAPP which is basically a ROON for Android.

 

[isostasy]

Based on what I’ve been reading here lately, I think some people have been confused with clarity = detail that is rampant throughout audiophool forums.

Clarity is dependent on FR and understanding stock FR of Susvara against a $20 SOTA IEM, one can perceive more clarity with Susvara because the upper mid and lower treble is more emphasized than that of the Harman Curve relative to bass response. This flatter bass without the elevation on the midbass to subbass makes the listener focus on the upper mids and treble and thus get a higher perceived clarity and then equate that to detail. However, BOTH $€£ 20 SOTA IEM and Susvara reproduce all of the details but Susvara makes a listener perceive higher clarity solely because of its stock FR. If one brain-burn in on the Harman Curve from the €£$ 20 IEM or any DCA headphone (E3, Expanse, Stealth) and listen to Susvara, they’ll quickly notice that all the details are the same but the clarity is different on both

OK, how do you define clarity?

 

[fredristair]

Clarity = ?

The ability of a headphone driver to accurately reproduce the waveform contributes to the precision and clarity of the stereo field. A high-quality waveform reproduction can enhance the sense of separation and positioning of individual elements within the stereo image.

The intricacies of sound within each element of the waveform, such as the attack and decay of a musical note or the subtle nuances in vocals, depend on the headphone's ability to faithfully reproduce these details. A high-quality waveform reproduction can result in better delineation of these elements, leading to a more detailed and immersive listening experience.

The quality of the waveform reproduction also affects the transparency and resolution of the audio. A headphone that accurately reproduces the waveform with minimal distortion and coloration is more likely to provide a transparent and detailed representation of the recorded sound.

Different headphones utilize varying driver technologies and materials, influencing their ability to faithfully reproduce waveforms. It's worth noting that the quality of the audio source and amplification can also impact the overall reproduction of the waveform. A high-quality headphone paired with a suitable amplifier and source can unlock its full potential.

This emphasis on waveform fidelity contributes to the nuanced differences in the sound signature, stereo imaging, and overall listening experience among different headphone models.

 

[isostasy]

The difficulty is that the input, which is the perfect signal from the audio source, may not be perfectly reproduced as soundwaves when it reaches our ears.

This document is for speakers, but it should mostly apply to headphones too: https://www.rmsacoustics.nl/papers/whitepaperdistortion.pdf

I extracted some key points:

Non-linearities in Dynamic Headphones​

Driver Mechanics:

• The driver, consisting of a voice coil, is fundamental in this process. It extends outward with a positive voltage and retracts with a negative one. However, the force constant (the amount of force produced by the voice coil for a given current) isn't consistent throughout its entire movement range. Ideally, this force should be linear, meaning it remains constant regardless of the coil’s position in its stroke. But in reality, this isn't the case, leading to non-linearity and, consequently, distortion where the frequency reproduction won't be perfect.
• Additionally, the reluctance force, stemming from the induced current due to the changing magnetic field, can either oppose or aid the voice coil's motion. This variability further contributes to non-linearities.

Diaphragm Dynamics:

• The diaphragm, vibrated by the voice coil, is supposed to convert oscillations into sound waves accurately, preserving all frequency components of the signal. However, the diaphragm has its own natural frequencies, known as' modes'. Each mode represents a distinct pattern of vibration, affecting how the diaphragm responds to different parts of the audio spectrum.
• So it may not have trouble producing a single frequency, but it can have difficulties producing multiple frequencies, contributing to intermodulation distortion.
• Designing these modes is crucial since the diaphragm’s response varies with each mode, potentially leading to certain frequencies being inaccurately reproduced.
• Check out the modes in the pdf.
  
  View attachment 337989

There's more but I'm not familiar
There's should be a model for acoustics and vibration of the entire headphones. I'm not familiar with the mathematics around that.



As you can imagine, the model will be different when going to electrostatics, as the components are different. And it will be both similar while still being quite different for planars (these use linear motors).

That's why the idea that all the signals from the source music will be reproduced perfectly as soundwaves is likely not true. Loss of information can occur in these phenomena. There's probably more.

Thank you. Is the result of any of these described distortions not represented in the frequency response and THD measurements?

 

[Robbo99999]

Agreed. There are two constants in the universe: flat-earthers and audiophools. ASR has grown exponentially by the year. Eventually, this person will realize the errors of their ways and quietly concede or they will be one of those two constants I just mentioned.

Well, I don't know if he is trolling or not, but yeah a lot of us know that ASR has a lot to give the audio community - solid science/reviews around speakers/headphones/DACS/amps, and good discussion.

 

[isostasy]

Clarity = ?

The ability of a headphone driver to accurately reproduce the waveform contributes to the precision and clarity of the stereo field. A high-quality waveform reproduction can enhance the sense of separation and positioning of individual elements within the stereo image.

The intricacies of sound within each element of the waveform, such as the attack and decay of a musical note or the subtle nuances in vocals, depend on the headphone's ability to faithfully reproduce these details. A high-quality waveform reproduction can result in better delineation of these elements, leading to a more detailed and immersive listening experience.

The quality of the waveform reproduction also affects the transparency and resolution of the audio. A headphone that accurately reproduces the waveform with minimal distortion and coloration is more likely to provide a transparent and detailed representation of the recorded sound.

Different headphones utilize varying driver technologies and materials, influencing their ability to faithfully reproduce waveforms. It's worth noting that the quality of the audio source and amplification can also impact the overall reproduction of the waveform. A high-quality headphone paired with a suitable amplifier and source can unlock its full potential.

This emphasis on waveform fidelity contributes to the nuanced differences in the sound signature, stereo imaging, and overall listening experience among different headphone models.

I think you've copy/pasted or used an ai generator, but assuming you believe what is written, surely "accurately reproduce the waveform" means accurately reproducing the frequency response, right?

And you should be able to point me to specific points of a song where "intricacies of sound" are heard only on a headphone with good "clarity" and I shouldn't be able to hear them on my cheap, low clarity headphones. Right?

 

[Soria Moria]

Clarity = ?

The ability of a headphone driver to accurately reproduce the waveform contributes to the precision and clarity of the stereo field. A high-quality waveform reproduction can enhance the sense of separation and positioning of individual elements within the stereo image.

The intricacies of sound within each element of the waveform, such as the attack and decay of a musical note or the subtle nuances in vocals, depend on the headphone's ability to faithfully reproduce these details. A high-quality waveform reproduction can result in better delineation of these elements, leading to a more detailed and immersive listening experience.

The quality of the waveform reproduction also affects the transparency and resolution of the audio. A headphone that accurately reproduces the waveform with minimal distortion and coloration is more likely to provide a transparent and detailed representation of the recorded sound.

Different headphones utilize varying driver technologies and materials, influencing their ability to faithfully reproduce waveforms. It's worth noting that the quality of the audio source and amplification can also impact the overall reproduction of the waveform. A high-quality headphone paired with a suitable amplifier and source can unlock its full potential.

This emphasis on waveform fidelity contributes to the nuanced differences in the sound signature, stereo imaging, and overall listening experience among different headphone models.

Sounds good! How do I implement this into my future driver designs and how do I learn to tell if what I'm hearing isn't simply frequency response differences from the driver?

 

[Blockader]

Clarity = ?

The ability of a headphone driver to accurately reproduce the waveform contributes to the precision and clarity of the stereo field. A high-quality waveform reproduction can enhance the sense of separation and positioning of individual elements within the stereo image.

The intricacies of sound within each element of the waveform, such as the attack and decay of a musical note or the subtle nuances in vocals, depend on the headphone's ability to faithfully reproduce these details. A high-quality waveform reproduction can result in better delineation of these elements, leading to a more detailed and immersive listening experience.

The quality of the waveform reproduction also affects the transparency and resolution of the audio. A headphone that accurately reproduces the waveform with minimal distortion and coloration is more likely to provide a transparent and detailed representation of the recorded sound.

Different headphones utilize varying driver technologies and materials, influencing their ability to faithfully reproduce waveforms. It's worth noting that the quality of the audio source and amplification can also impact the overall reproduction of the waveform. A high-quality headphone paired with a suitable amplifier and source can unlock its full potential.

This emphasis on waveform fidelity contributes to the nuanced differences in the sound signature, stereo imaging, and overall listening experience among different headphone models.

you are talking about distortion. waveform fidelity is directly linked with distortion.

Human hearing is really bad with hearing second, third order distortion(as the loudness of the fundamental sound gets higher, the fundamental can forward mask even higher order of distortion). On top of that we humans do not hear waveforms. Human ear isn't really sensitive to phase errors except few frequency areas such as 3-4khz.

 

[fredristair]

While humans don't "hear" waveforms in the graphical sense, our auditory system is finely tuned to interpret the physical manifestations of sound waves, allowing us to perceive and recognize the diverse range of sounds in our environment.

 

[Robbo99999]

Frequency Response & Distortion are the only two things to take note of, to simplify the flowery wording. But then you do have the elements of soundstage which seems to vary from model to model (which is not fully understood), and effect of comfort, effect of unit to unit variation, effect of accurate driver matching (left/right on the imaging), effect of specific headphone design on how it couples with your unique physiology (do you get a good seal for instance). But to keep it simple for measurements: Frequency Response & Distortion.

 

[amirm]

While humans don't "hear" waveforms in the graphical sense, our auditory system is finely tuned to interpret the physical manifestations of sound waves, allowing us to perceive and recognize the diverse range of sounds in our environment.

I have no trouble doing that using my smartphone speaker. Where did you say you got your education in "auditory system?"

 

[fredristair]

I get confused and need things explained simply to me.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I get confused and need things explained simply to me.

If you can’t understand the math of Fourier transforms then maybe you shouldn’t hold strong opinions on their results?

 

[Palladium]

I think you've copy/pasted or used an ai generator, but assuming you believe what is written, surely "accurately reproduce the waveform" means accurately reproducing the frequency response, right?

And you should be able to point me to specific points of a song where "intricacies of sound" are heard only on a headphone with good "clarity" and I shouldn't be able to hear them on my cheap, low clarity headphones. Right?

I found out audio passages that like mush on my three sets of speakers also sounds like mush on a Zero Red.

 

[Blake]

Tardigrades are overpowering the plankton. Do I have a bad cable?