Hi... Looking to build a bar sound system - can anyone help

[mousehunter]

first post hear - but have been enjoying (kind of) reading hundreds of pages of reviews. At some point, it simply becomes too much to take in at one time - so figure I will make a post and see if members will find pity and give me some feedback.

My brother-in-law (and myself) has a beach vacation rental (first row - nothing in front of us but dunes and beach). While the primary goal is to operate it as a business and investment - we do get to enjoy it when nobody else wants to rent it (it is probably being rented about 30 weeks a year - abet we would love to push that up to 40). While some of our renters want to go and just relax, we know the property also attracts clients who want to throw a beach party-so we have been trying to develop that rental angle. Our primary deck space was mostly just for relaxing - so we put in a second 1k sq foot deck with a more playful attitude (Tiki bar with a view of the gulf). At least while we visit, we find ourselves on the second deck most of the time. Now it is time to upgrade the sound system (something more than an Alexa sitting on the bar - that can not compeate with the sound system from a house behind us on the third row)

I have a bad habit of going down rabbit holes. This started as trying to use a budget class D amp with bluetooth and some budget Dayton audio outdoor speakers. $400 all in. But I know those speakers would not put out the sound I was hoping for and the amp was hopelessly under powered (and honestly, probably trash when it came to audio quality as well-it needs to be better than the Alexa we are currently using). Eventually started looking at better brand integrated solutions. Really could not find much information on most of them, and seriously questioned how they would work. One was the Bose Music Amplifier with a pair of 251 speakers. But that more than doubled the budget. By that point, could put in a better streamer (WiiM), more powerful (abet still budget) Dayton Audio IO8XTB 8" outdoor speakers), and a Crown Amp, and still be in the same budget ballpark. Right now thinking about uppgrading that to a Buckeye Amp - and the hole just keeps getting deeper and the budget keeps getting abused.

Not really sure how much overhead I should have with the amp - and since it is a rental, how do I throttle it so the first renters don't melt the speakers. Salt air eats everything metal-so need the speakers to be pretty durable (we have to replace door knobs at least annually due to corrosion). Am I somewhere on the right track - or should I just find some powered bluetooth speakers and say good enough... Or should I keep digging a deeper hole - add a better DAC, a DSP to deal with getting it to sound remotely balanced... Kind of drowning in a pond of too much information, and a sea of too much bad information. Kind of trust this forum to have a better ratio of good to bad info than the internet as a whole (which seems to be 99% bad information).

Take pity on me, a neophyte. Lend me your wisdom.

 

[DVDdoug]

If are close to a music store that sells instruments & PA systems you might check into what they have, and hopefully listen. Most PA speakers are rugged, lightweight, and OK for outdoor use (but you wouldn't want them exposed to rain or snow). You probably won't get "high fidelity" but they can be pretty-good (good enough for DJ use, etc.) and they are efficient and "loud" so good for a party (but maybe not so good for the neighbors).

and since it is a rental, how do I throttle it so the first renters don't melt the speakers.

A lot of PA speakers are active and they are probably relatively safe with the amps they have. Otherwise I'd leave an under-powered amp for the guests and lock-up a higher-power amp if you want one.

add a better DAC, a DSP

A "better" DAC isn't going to make any difference.

You probably don't need "full DSP" or parametric EQ. Probably all you need is graphic equalization or maybe just bass & treble controls. Some active PA speaker have bass & treble controls.

 

[mousehunter]

I would probably jump on decent PA powered speakers - but I need to figure out how weatherproof they are. If I don't want them to have feet - they will need to be securely fastened down - and I know I could never rely on renters to actually put something like a 40lb speaker away at the end of an evening of drinking.

 

[Philbo King]

I'd recommend gear rated for outside & salt-air, unless you plan to replace it all once a year. That will significantly limit your options though.

 

[mousehunter]

The house has a storage room under it (with about a 20' ceiling). Barring a hurricane, that can keep the stereo components (other than the speakers) fairly protected (will probalby put in a small server rack). With just one layer of hardy plank between that and the deck-should not have problems with blootooth (and there is good wifi everywhere.). Speakers can be up on the house, just under the top deck - so will be relatively protected (that portion of the deck has an 8' eve). The speakers from Dayton are ABS with an aluminum grill. Not corrosion free, but should not rust all that fast. Bracket will be all but sacrificial - but I am sure I can fab something later if I need to (if the speakers outlast the brackets). Worse case I will have an aluminum fab shop come up with something. Lots of boat places do custom fab work.

Speakers are rated 80 watts RMS, 160 peak. I am probably overdoing it even thinking about an amp that can do 180 watts peak (at 8ohms). Will probably hold off for a while on any intervening audio stages (unless I feel I need something to control the max volume of the amp). Just hate to not have enough headroom - but upsizing the amp might be just inviting other problems (not mentioning costing a bit more).

 

[kemmler3D]

I might consider marine speakers for this setup, or at least make sure whatever you get has gold-plated contacts. Whatever you get for the rest of the speaker (I strongly advise sealed at IPX6+) you won't want the connection to be going bad every 10 minutes because of the salt.

If salt in the air is corroding things, you won't want a ported speaker, because the crossover components inside the speaker are going to get corroded like everything else.

This is also maybe a reason to switch tracks entirely and go for sealed actives with good IP ratings, if you can find some within the budget.

As for the amp, I would just go for the cheapest clean power you can get (crown is probably fine) and a half-decent streamer like the WiiM should be fine. You can get renters to install the WiiM app and they're off to the races.

I would use some kind of Pre (or a DAC with volume control) - you can then set the entire system for a certain max volume when the WiiM is at its max, then lock up the amp and DAC/pre in a closet or something so renters can't blast it beyond reason. They'll connect via BT / Wifi and everything will be gravy. Volume control will all be via the app and you can decide how loud 100% is going to be.

Depending on the neighbor situation, I might also look at some subs. On a deck you're getting basically zero room gain.

 

[DMill]

I think you really need to ask yourself if you are building the system for the weeks you are there or your renters. Most renters don’t care much about audiophile nonsense and just want something that can play their Jimmy Buffet favs and mix in Jump by House of Pain. If your answer is to make something simple, I’d go with a decent Sonos build and call it a day. If it’s for you, well, lots of options

 

[SKBubba]

I always said a beach rental should have three things. A Keurig, a nice toaster oven, and a decent bluetooth speaker setup. They never do, so we bring our own Keurig and bluetooth speaker. Sounds like you are going way above and beyond on the bluetooth speaker setup, so I salute you.

 

[kemmler3D]

I think you really need to ask yourself if you are building the system for the weeks you are there or your renters. Most renters don’t care much about audiophile nonsense and just want something that can play their Jimmy Buffet favs and mix in Jump by House of Pain. If your answer is to make something simple, I’d go with a decent Sonos build and call it a day. If it’s for you, well, lots of options

I would agree on Sonos 100%, for the reasons you said, but I don't think they have anything that's going to stand up to salt air.

 

[mousehunter]

We have a lot of amenities - but will check on the toaster oven next time I visit. Odd things we have are a backup generator (almost a necessity due to local power grid inconsistency), commercial ice maker, EV charger, RV outlet (EV charger credits made it a cheap addition). We sleep 18 (and guests have brought RV's before to pump up that number). We might not be the highest luxury rental in the area (but we do our best to be in the top of our niche-sleeping 3/4 families).

Sonos would be an easy choice - but they tend to be complicated and not 100% all the time reliable. Neighbor has Sonos (they do not rent) and rarely does not complain about it-needs manually resetting too often). I would be lying if I said it was 100% for the renters - we will enjoy the hell out of it I am sure. Brother-in-law used to be fairly high level tech person (last job was designing hi end smart home/home automation products) -and he really hates Sonos. He does like Klipsch (that is the drop in solution he used for the indoor living area.
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speakers I am considering are sealed with a base resonator. They have an IP66 rating - can be hit with fairly high pressure water (hosed with a pressure washer from a distance).

 

[Philbo King]

The house has a storage room under it (with about a 20' ceiling). Barring a hurricane, that can keep the stereo components (other than the speakers) fairly protected (will probalby put in a small server rack). With just one layer of hardy plank between that and the deck-should not have problems with blootooth (and there is good wifi everywhere.). Speakers can be up on the house, just under the top deck - so will be relatively protected (that portion of the deck has an 8' eve). The speakers from Dayton are ABS with an aluminum grill. Not corrosion free, but should not rust all that fast. Bracket will be all but sacrificial - but I am sure I can fab something later if I need to (if the speakers outlast the brackets). Worse case I will have an aluminum fab shop come up with something. Lots of boat places do custom fab work.

Speakers are rated 80 watts RMS, 160 peak. I am probably overdoing it even thinking about an amp that can do 180 watts peak (at 8ohms). Will probably hold off for a while on any intervening audio stages (unless I feel I need something to control the max volume of the amp). Just hate to not have enough headroom - but upsizing the amp might be just inviting other problems (not mentioning costing a bit more).

You might want to consider putting a DSP limiter in-line during rentals.

 

[Travis]

Klipsch Commercial Outdoor speakers, like the CA-800T, or AW-650. we have them at beach house on the Gulf, over 15 years, a house in Vail (8 years), they just keep on going. There commercial rock speakers are indestructible, they are around a jacuzzi up in Vail, have been buried under 8’ of snow, etc. The AW and CT will disconnect from the mounts in about 2 minutes if you want to bring them in for a storm/season, they can either be hooked up in distributed system (like 70v) if you want to run 4 or 5, or can be hooked up straight to a stereo integrated amp.

Tried a few others, they never made it past two Texas summers.

See them all over the coast at restaurants, bars, etc.

Travis

 

[DMill]

Last year my girlfriend and I did an AirBNB in Sonoma. They had a wonderful system in the house, most likely old gear they upgraded. Mostly Rotel separates from the 90s and some big Tannoy 12 inch mains. Even knowing what I know it took me a bit of dicking around to figure out how to play music off my smartphone. I think most rentals just want to say, “Alexa, play Bob Marley channel”. I think whatever solution you choose should be simple. Put yourself in the place of someone who has no idea what a DAC even is and start from there.

 

[mousehunter]

Whatever I put in, I want the client to see it as a simple bluetooth speaker first. Instructions for an app and/or Alexia might be included with their welcome package-but if one in a year uses it I would almost be shocked. Sometimes I think half the clients have trouble unlocking the door - who reads instructions anymore. Type the code, press the check mark, wait 3 seconds - that is way too difficult.

Honestly, we changed out the main TV so clients could deal with 1 remote for everything. A remote for the TV, Roku, and soundbar - it just made people start pulling wires out. They still pull wires out - but not nearly as often... Last clients managed to disable the AC thermostats. Unplugged most of the Alexa devices, and also disabled the wifi when they were trying to kill the outdoor security cameras. They also tried to physically destroy one of the security cameras (it was a temporary set up during the bar construction-it would have been removed during our next work weekend). It took video of them punching it (apparently it had an anti tampering record feature).

 

[mousehunter]

Well, Wiim and Klipsch speakers ordered. Brother-in-law likes Klipsch and they had a pretty good father's day sale on MAAP pricing making them a little cheaper than the Dayton Audio speakers. Well at least cheaper until I decide I want more bass and add a second amp and a subwoofer... Klipsch have a lot more advertised sensitivity, same RMS power rating, and almost 2x the peak power rating (and a better chance of those being real amps not Chinese ones-IIRC somewhere it mentioned non-clipping amps). I kind of doubt they will be a bad decision.

Did a bit more research on PA speakers. If volume was the only consideration-probably should have gone that route - but I doubt they are more weather proof than the Klipsch. And if I have to be honest with myself, I doubt we personally will want more volume than the Klipsch will provide (the few renters who do take the time and effort to follow the instructions might want more-but such is life.

Only thing I am really not liking with the Wiim is in Bluetooth mode-you have to have access to it to pair. Clients will not have access to it. I don't see how I can get it easily waterproofed (with a separate amp at the bar). Putting it inside the house will almost certainly be out of bluetooth range from the bar. We will have it interlinked with Alexa-so they will be able to play music that way-but again will need to follow instructions.

 

[kemmler3D]

For the pairing issue - there should be standalone bluetooth receivers that are always in pairing mode, that you can connect either to a pre or the WiiM itself. Or, you can feed an auxiliary cable from outdoors in to the WiiM so people can do it the old-fashioned way...

 

[mousehunter]

Well, I think everything is ordered (well accept for some cable pass through hardware. Kilpesh AW-650 speakers. Buckeye Hypex NC252MP amp. Wiim Pro streamer. Various cables and speaker wire. Now I wait - will be lucky if the amp is only 2 weeks out. Sadly that will miss our next work days at the rental.