Help me understand

[Hewbacca]

I tried to name this thread better, but it could literally be regarding any number of elements of my audio chain. I am comparing two setups below:

1. iPhone --> Apple Lightning dongle --> Thieaudio 3.5mm to 2.5mm adapter --> Thieaudio balanced cable --> Moondrop Blessing 2
2. iPhone --> Bluetooth (AAC) --> Fiio BTR5 --> Thieaudio balanced cable --> Moondrop Blessing 2

Here's the "problem:" 2 sounds noticeably much better than 1 to me. It's not in the tone or resolution, but in the depth, soundstage, and layering. It sounds more immersive, engaging, and like it surrounds me. I also hear individual instruments more clearly. The dongle is not bad in any way, but the BTR5 is a much more enjoyable experience and I feel more connected to the music. I stop what I'm doing to focus on the music as opposed to it just being on in the background. It has notes of leather and honey and a strong mouthfeel. Etc.

I have read, watched, and thought about, and ended up agreeing with, the following tenants of audiophilia:

1. The Apple dongle measures great, is great, and can't be bad
2. Two DACs in the BTR5 (vs 1. in the Apple dongle) are there for marketing and don't affect the audio experience
3. Balanced outputs don't improve sound quality or anything about the audio experience other than potentially more power or less noise on very long cable runs
4. Bluetooth is "bad" and wired is "good," and AAC Bluetooth is especially "bad" (I don't really agree with this one, but it is a factor above so I'm including it)
5. Power doesn't matter as long as you have enough volume to play the IEMs loud enough (which both setups above do).

So the question: if all of the above are true, why does my BTR5, wirelessly over AAC, sound noticeably and repeatably better than the wired Apple dongle?

Some more details: I am using the same audio files from the same sources (Spotify on Very High (320kbps Ogg Vorbis), AND local 256kbps MP3 files), with no EQ applied, in both setups. I have tried three different Apple dongles. The 3.5mm to 2.5mm adapter came with the balanced cable, it's not some cheap part. I have sufficient power and headroom with both setups. I can't hear the noise floor on either setup. I have done A/B testing, as well as long term listening, with both setups, and tried to be as fair and impartial as I could possibly be (in fact, I was pre-biased to think the wired dongle should sound better).

I have a theory but I don't want to influence the responses so I will wait and see what you all say.

 

[JSmith]

repeatably better

Just interested how the repeatability was done, i.e. we have a very short auditory memory? How did you volume match each chain? Also, it's quite common for people to prefer the sound of lossy codecs... so you may just prefer the BT AAC. For example, when I did some tests of high res and 192kbs MP3... I was able to tell them apart, but when asked to pick the better sounding one, most choices were the MP3 surprisingly but did depend on the test track a bit too.


JSmith

 

[Hewbacca]

Just interested how the repeatability was done, i.e. we have a very short auditory memory? How did you volume match each chain? Also, it's quite common for people to prefer the sound of lossy codecs... so you may just prefer the BT AAC. For example, when I did some tests of high res and 192kbs MP3... I was able to tell them apart, but when asked to pick the better sounding one, most choices were the MP3 surprisingly but did depend on the test track a bit too.


JSmith

As best I could without a budget or test equipment I guess. In doing an A/B I feel like there is lots of room for error and bias, which is why I don't put as much value in those tests, particularly due to volume matching as you point out. But when using the dongle for a week, and enjoying music but still getting work done, then using the Fiio for a week and regularly being pulled away from what I was doing by the awe at how good it sounded, it seems to me the bias is not there. In other words, I am not thinking about which sounds better, I am just listening to music, a variety of tracks played at a variety of levels, and I regularly have unprompted moments of realization with only one of the setups; that to me is repeatable. It also (to me), "averages out" concerns about volume matching or inherent bias since I am just going about my normal life.

 

[JSmith]

As best I could without a budget or test equipment I guess.

All good mate, just asking, not denying your experience necessarily... but the volume matching is really important as a slight increase in volume is often perceived as better, clearer, open sound stage etc. Also, it's not a bad thing to prefer the sound of a lossy or perceptually lossless compression codec. If you're happy with what sounds best to you and not worried about the reasons why that may be, just enjoy.



JSmith

 

[jae]

BTR5 measurements here: https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurementreview-of-fiio-high-fidelity-bluetooth-amp-btr5/

"Ideal" chain in your case would be iPhone -> Apple Dongle -> Moondrop Blessing 2. It is also the simplest. As you surmised it should have nothing to do with power as based on the headphone's and Apple Dongle's specs you should have more than enough power with either config to perform to the extremes of that headphone.

The purpose of A/B is to minimise error and bias, not create it! Volume matching is the most important and overlooked parameters when A/B testing and comparing all audio equipment in general, and in most cases it is the first and often times only thing that really matters once you get into well-measuring gear. It is extremely difficult to volume match "by ear" for a number of reasons, especially with a complex signal like music. The most accurate but still not fool-proof way to do it by ear is with pure tones or similar, and you would need a way to instantaneously swap between the two setups within milliseconds of each other which is not practical. Doing this with some kind of cheap handheld dB meter is also not appropriate as it is inaccurate. The proper, cheapest way you could volume match in lieu of a microphone measurement rig is with a true RMS multimeter and maybe some old/cheap cable adapters which isn't that expensive as far as test equipment goes, and may be something you or someone you know already has at home.

@JSmith brings up a good point, maybe you prefer the sound of lossy tracks. But you would also have to obviously be able to not only tell the difference between lossy and lossless, but be able to tell for your own library or the tracks you listen to, which you could only know from a proper A/B.

If not volume, the most likely explanation is psychological- a variable mood. Or both. Perhaps for whatever reason you were paying more attention to the music one week, or were more distracted by your work the next so you focused on the music more. Maybe the weather was rotten one week and not the other. Maybe you drank more coffee that day. For argument sake, even if you were listening at similar volumes, maybe the volume control of the BTR gave you more granular control of the volume which could impact your experience if you were interacting with it a lot throughout the sessions. Maybe you went out of your way to focus on the music more to see if the BTR5 was doing anything and in so doing you developed a higher appreciation for your library and experiences with the new product.

Ask yourself, why did you buy the BTR5? Perhaps you consciously or subconsciously were looking for something that would increase your enjoyment, sound quality, volume, ease of use etc. You might trying to justify the purchase when perhaps there was in fact no perceivable difference. You can waste money or waste hours of your time A/Bing to see if there is a difference and if there's no perceivable difference then you don't need it, or you can just skip that altogether. If there's no perceivable difference but the wireless, volume controls, or other features of the product give you some kind of benefit, then you can still be happy even if it didn't affect the sound or made it marginally worse on paper.

 

[jasonhanjk]

Apple dongle uses old dac, most likely unable to improve it's crosstalk.

This Fiio have >75db crosstalk for 32 ohm which is pretty good.

 

[Hewbacca]

BTR5 measurements here: https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurementreview-of-fiio-high-fidelity-bluetooth-amp-btr5/

"Ideal" chain in your case would be iPhone -> Apple Dongle -> Moondrop Blessing 2. It is also the simplest. As you surmised it should have nothing to do with power as based on the headphone's and Apple Dongle's specs you should have more than enough power with either config to perform to the extremes of that headphone.

The purpose of A/B is to minimise error and bias, not create it! Volume matching is the most important and overlooked parameters when A/B testing and comparing all audio equipment in general, and in most cases it is the first and often times only thing that really matters once you get into well-measuring gear. It is extremely difficult to volume match "by ear" for a number of reasons, especially with a complex signal like music. The most accurate but still not fool-proof way to do it by ear is with pure tones or similar, and you would need a way to instantaneously swap between the two setups within milliseconds of each other which is not practical. Doing this with some kind of cheap handheld dB meter is also not appropriate as it is inaccurate. The proper, cheapest way you could volume match in lieu of a microphone measurement rig is with a true RMS multimeter and maybe some old/cheap cable adapters which isn't that expensive as far as test equipment goes, and may be something you or someone you know already has at home.

@JSmith brings up a good point, maybe you prefer the sound of lossy tracks. But you would also have to obviously be able to not only tell the difference between lossy and lossless, but be able to tell for your own library or the tracks you listen to, which you could only know from a proper A/B.

If not volume, the most likely explanation is psychological- a variable mood. Or both. Perhaps for whatever reason you were paying more attention to the music one week, or were more distracted by your work the next so you focused on the music more. Maybe the weather was rotten one week and not the other. Maybe you drank more coffee that day. For argument sake, even if you were listening at similar volumes, maybe the volume control of the BTR gave you more granular control of the volume which could impact your experience if you were interacting with it a lot throughout the sessions. Maybe you went out of your way to focus on the music more to see if the BTR5 was doing anything and in so doing you developed a higher appreciation for your library and experiences with the new product.

Ask yourself, why did you buy the BTR5? Perhaps you consciously or subconsciously were looking for something that would increase your enjoyment, sound quality, volume, ease of use etc. You might trying to justify the purchase when perhaps there was in fact no perceivable difference. You can waste money or waste hours of your time A/Bing to see if there is a difference and if there's no perceivable difference then you don't need it, or you can just skip that altogether. If there's no perceivable difference but the wireless, volume controls, or other features of the product give you some kind of benefit, then you can still be happy even if it didn't affect the sound or made it marginally worse on paper.

These are all great points, but I'm going to argue with some of them. First, I don't think I'm introducing bias. I've had the BTR5 forever and have no attachment to it, and like I said earlier, I expected the dongle to outperform it, so if I had a bias it was the opposite! Secondly, I have listened to both forever (a week was an example, I realistically have probably a thousand hours between them), so I think there are enough data points to remove things like good day/bad day, mood, etc from the equation. There's just too many data points. I've literally never been like wow this dongle sounds great, but it happens with the Fiio all the time.

The volume matching, I 100% agree with everything being said, but just don't see why I would listen to the Fiio louder over hundreds of hours of listening, all else being equal. I am drawing long-term conclusions based on lots of samples. It just doesn't click with me.

The "liking lossy codecs" maybe has some potential, but when I've done the blind tests you can find online, I've always picked either 320kbps or lossless, so I guess I don't think that is it? It would also just be weird to be a person who finds loss to really open up soundstage and increase layering, lol.

If it isn't clear yet, my theory is that the DAC(s) are superior in some way. I have other experiences with other equipment where I've concluded an external DAC or DAC/amp sounds better than my built-in soundcard in a similar way that I'm experiencing here. Why does everyone on ASR buy dedicated desktop DACs if they don't do something? I can almost see thinking of a DAC as a musical instrument since it is creating analog signals. I am not trying to justify anything here, I just really don't understand what else it could be. Either the DAC is superior, or two DACs over a balanced connection does create more separation (which I've heard others say independent of this discussion).

I am probably coming across argumentative, and I don't mean to be, I just don't see how it could be psychological over such a large sample size with such consistency, and I want to understand. I should be ok with just using the "inferior" solution if it makes me happy, but my brain doesn't work that way. If my situation allows for a wired connection, I feel like I should be using it.

Is there any possibility its the DACs?

 

[Hewbacca]

Or I suppose another thing worth looking at would be need for an adapter and/or any change from using a balanced cable single-ended. I could isolate those variables easily but it would require me to A/B which we all agree I can’t do reliably. It’s probably all in my head.

 

[solderdude]

When you like the sound better with the BTR5 I would simply use that.
Whenever you are using it with the dongle you will always feel you are missing something.
The why question can only be answered by measuring both systems (with a suitable) sound card and or level matched blind testing.
That is a lot of trouble and not easy given the balanced vs single ended thing, the low impedance involved + adapter (which will add resistance in the common return path in the dongle situation).
Just enjoy the setup.

 

[mediocrebutarrogant]

problem is apple dongle is 0.5vrms in most regions..

 

[staticV3]

Luckily there are many US-based sellers on eBay willing to ship a 1Vrms Apple dongle to all over the world.
Though including shipping costs you're looking at Meizu HiFi money for a dongle that's less powerful.