Help diagnosing distortion problem in LP playback, please.

[JP]

^^^ what he said... and the cantilever will also bend in response to that force over time.

Ya, forgot about that one - the suspension can take on permanent compression.

 

[egellings]

Thanks again on the anti-skate stuff. But as my arm doesn't have the adjustment I'm just not bothering to think about it. As I've mentioned, once I set my cartridge up well with the protractor everything sound stellar, from start of record to the end. I don't need to introduce anything more to be neurotic about

My understanding of antiskating is that it is modulated by how much drag the stylus experiences when it tracks a record, and loud passages produce more of the drag effect that quiet passages do. So antiskating is at best just an average amount of force that may be either too much on quiet passages and too little on quieter ones.

 

[spiral scratch]

My understanding of antiskating is that it is modulated by how much drag the stylus experiences when it tracks a record, and loud passages produce more of the drag effect that quiet passages do. So antiskating is at best just an average amount of force that may be either too much on quiet passages and too little on quieter ones.

This is my understanding as well, but it doesn't negate the other effects and make anti-skate unnecessary. It's an imperfect solution to an imperfect format, so yes it's a generalized way to help improve tracking. Just like the best your can hope for in a pivoting arm is to have two points of perfect stylus to groove alignment on an entire side of a record.

 

[morillon]

the subject is complicated..inextricable
but this approach on a blank track by accepting a slow glide is a really easy and easily available method for those who don't listen to too much highly modulated or demanding music... (or when listening on a mono harpsichord sound , piano "cool"etc)
she was adopted by many friends listening to jazz rock..
but if some perceive lateralized distortion on a daily basis... it may be necessary to switch to a stronger a-s... see, by minimizing the force applied as best as possible, on a 12db like that of the ultimate or recente hifi-news etc...
maybe test lp will soon appear with classic 300- 315hz for its settings but at lower modulations.. 1.8-2.5cm/s ?
the friends are measuring to have fun again
;-)
(there was a very funny test in the 70s playing on very close frequency beats, interesting .. but I have to check at what level it is modulated)
the concern, as in many other audio stories, is what is theorized.. and what is actually actually perceived by each other according to practices etc...


the irony in the case of the as.. is that thinking creates a symmetrical wear..we have done exactly the opposite for decades by considering the extreme cases of modulations....very very little encountered.
but,
to say that not an interest .. I find it a bit silly
but yes, like the alignement of cartdriges on non-linear arms... only factually relative...
that's for sure..

 

[spiral scratch]

the subject is complicated..inextricable
but this approach on a blank track by accepting a slow glide is a really easy and easily available method for those who don't listen to too much highly modulated or demanding music... (or when listening on a mono harpsichord sound , piano "cool"etc)
she was adopted by many friends listening to jazz rock..
but if some perceive lateralized distortion on a daily basis... it may be necessary to switch to a stronger a-s... see, by minimizing the force applied as best as possible, on a 12db like that of the ultimate or recente hifi-news etc...
maybe test lp will soon appear with classic 300- 315hz for its settings but at lower modulations.. 1.8-2.5cm/s ?
the friends are measuring to have fun again
;-)
(there was a very funny test in the 70s playing on very close frequency beats, interesting .. but I have to check at what level it is modulated)
the concern, as in many other audio stories, is what is theorized.. and what is actually actually perceived by each other according to practices etc...


the irony in the case of the as.. is that thinking creates a symmetrical wear..we have done exactly the opposite for decades by considering the extreme cases of modulations....very very little encountered.
but,
to say that not an interest .. I find it a bit silly
but yes, like the alignement of cartdriges on non-linear arms... only factually relative...
that's for sure..

Thanks for the clarification. This makes sense to me.

 

[JP]

the irony in the case of the as.. is that thinking creates a symmetrical wear..we have done exactly the opposite for decades by considering the extreme cases of modulations....very very little encountered.

Skating forces on an arm with overhang are inescapable. I think it's broadly understood due to the dynamic contributions that perfect AS, thus perfectly symmetrical wear, is not possible. Of the dozens and dozens of styli that I've inspected under a microscope, when I see uneven wear it's on the left side. I actually can't recall ever seeing uneven wear on the right side. I'm sure it happens, but I think it's rather rare.

Personally, I'd rather have AS and play the averages that it's calibrated good enough as I know how bad the wear can be when there's no AS. Due to the range of most AS mechanisms if I completely botch the setting at worst I'll end up with similar uneven wear to having no AS, only on the other channel. I've never cranked my AS to max, though.

 

[morillon]

given that linked to the level of modulation etc, excessively variable (and the realization of the diam) .., an optimization is not really possible ..
that's all..
we take "biases"...

 

[JP]

I can't understand what point you're trying to make. If you're saying it's not possible to optimize completely so don't bother then I disagree - it's not remotely difficult to do better than no AS at all.

 

[morillon]

I didn't say I don't put an as....
I even said the opposite...
just seeing that variable conditions....is not optimizable as many may think...
that's all..
and for those who listen to little music with overmodulation.. the idea of minimizing it makes sense

stop for me
to much speak
;-)

 

[JP]

I believe I understand.

 

[egellings]

This is my understanding as well, but it doesn't negate the other effects and make anti-skate unnecessary. It's an imperfect solution to an imperfect format, so yes it's a generalized way to help improve tracking. Just like the best your can hope for in a pivoting arm is to have two points of perfect stylus to groove alignment on an entire side of a record.

I agree that with all its shortcomings, antiskating is still useful, even if you apply just the minimum amount. And for all its defects, the LP medium has no right to sound as good as it does. With all its warts, you'd think it would be just plain unlistenable.

 

[mike70]

LP medium has no right to sound as good as it does

Oh yeah!

 

[Urubamba]

My understanding of antiskating is that it is modulated by how much drag the stylus experiences when it tracks a record, and loud passages produce more of the drag effect that quiet passages do. So antiskating is at best just an average amount of force that may be either too much on quiet passages and too little on quieter ones.

That's the lesser part of the problem. The main damaging effect - the irregular wear of the needle, mainly on the inner, left side - on the diamond is due to the forces generated by the angle error when using tangential arms.
A simple experiment to check this is to cut an old X-ray plate to the diameter of an LP including its central hole. You place it on it and support the tone arm, you simply move the platter by hand in the direction of rotation, you will see how it immediately slides towards the center. That's a huge force compared to the effect of register modulation. It does add up, but it's not as relevant as if you didn't use AS. The AS should then be adjusted for the center of the vinyl, this is actually a compromise, an average, because the tangential error varies as the tone arm moves toward the center.

Anti-Skate Technical Information — Basis Audio

www.basisaudio.com

 

[spiral scratch]

I agree that with all its shortcomings, antiskating is still useful, even if you apply just the minimum amount. And for all its defects, the LP medium has no right to sound as good as it does. With all its warts, you'd think it would be just plain unlistenable.

Yeh, I agree records can sound pretty great even with their puny bandwidth.

 

[mike70]

Yeh, I agree records can sound pretty great even with their puny bandwidth.

You need to check the bandwidth available after your speakers in your room ;-)

The bandwidth at the source level is one thing ... but after you transform everything to analog, amplify that analog signal and then transform that electrical current to sound waves with your speakers, and the interaction with your room modes and noise floor ... is a big different thing.

Maybe that puny bandwidth is all that you have in the real world.

 

[egellings]

Yeh, I agree records can sound pretty great even with their puny bandwidth.

I don't see records' BW as being puny; It gets out to 15kHz at least, and going to 20kHz BW gets little, if any additional audible information. Of course, not all LP playback equipment may achieve that, but a properly set up 'table, arm & cart can. The biggest problem with LP playback regarding bandwidth is that the high frequency tracings in the grooves get worn away after frequent plays.

 

[mike70]

high frequency tracings in the grooves get worn away after frequent plays

Not in a right setup ... stuff proved objectively by modern tests ... we cannot think like we're using bad settings with a badly worn elliptical stylus (or even worst, a worn conical stylus with 4grams VTF), something common in the 70s.

 

[morillon]

measurements, white noise (?), of f-r on a 33rpm (see 45rpm) with constant arm- cartdrige (and little worn disc) according to the position of the test on the disc...with a drop in the linear speed?
;-)

 

[mike70]

measurements, white noise (?), of f-r on a 33rpm (see 45rpm) with constant arm- cartdrige (and little worn disc) according to the position of the test on the disc...with a drop in the linear speed?
;-)

I have records from my youth, with more than 100 plays ... and I also have the CDs ... I don't listen to any hf degradation. At all.
Obviously, with the CD, I only needed to put in the CD player ... with vinyl I needed to have a methodic care and work, but we're not talking about convenience. We're talking that records aren't something you destroy in 8 plays.

We can repeat concepts or ... we can find information ... Or better ... we can have experience.

 

[morillon]

(we can also do some measurements of very listened and strongly modulated records above 10k)
your statement unrelated to my question...purely technical...
;-)