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Help diagnosing distortion problem in LP playback, please.

b_a_r

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It's an Acoustic Solid WTB 313 tonearm. It came, along with the Benz Micro Ebony cartridge, as a package with my Transrotor turntable when I bought it second hand:





I'm clueless about such things. Sorry. (I didn't have to do much investigating in to tone arms, since this came with my turntable).




I don't think I can turn the arm in terms of directly altering azimuth. But I believe that since I use the Mint Tractor set up (custom made for that arm) it suggests everything is dialed in very well. I don't believe the arm has an anti-skate adjustment (I think they reject that for some reason). I don't adjust VTA (don't think I can) but VTF is using a standard cartridge scale, adjusted by ear, within the range recommended by Benz Micro.

This reminds me: I've had this new cartridge for a couple years now and I should check with my USB microscope how the needle is looking.
Azimuth is pretty important. I also use a Mint protractor for my table/cart set up bit sometimes the actual sylus/cantilever isnt mounted 90deg to the horizontal plane of the cart body. A few degrees off in either direction will give poor results. It’s hard to eyeball Azimuth. I dial my set ups with the Analog Productions test LP in conjunction with a Fozgometer. If your arm has no way for Azimuth adjustment Wally Tools makes headshell shims. Getting that sylus riding in the groove properly has been in my experience extremely important…
 

JP

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This reminds me: I've had this new cartridge for a couple years now and I should check with my USB microscope how the needle is looking.

Sorry, you need about 200x optical with proper lighting to get a look. Those USB scopes are mainly digital zoom - no bueno.
 

b_a_r

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It's an Acoustic Solid WTB 313 tonearm. It came, along with the Benz Micro Ebony cartridge, as a package with my Transrotor turntable when I bought it second hand:





I'm clueless about such things. Sorry. (I didn't have to do much investigating in to tone arms, since this came with my turntable).




I don't think I can turn the arm in terms of directly altering azimuth. But I believe that since I use the Mint Tractor set up (custom made for that arm) it suggests everything is dialed in very well. I don't believe the arm has an anti-skate adjustment (I think they reject that for some reason). I don't adjust VTA (don't think I can) but VTF is using a standard cartridge scale, adjusted by ear, within the range recommended by Benz Micro.

This reminds me: I've had this new cartridge for a couple years now and I should check with my USB microscope how the needle is looking.
Looking online apparently that thumb screw at the back of the headshell is to loosen the headshell to get your overhang as well at adjusting the azimuth all at once, which sounds like a PITA.. but that's where you can twist the cart to dial in the Azimuth.. apparently..
 

Bob from Florida

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It's an Acoustic Solid WTB 313 tonearm. It came, along with the Benz Micro Ebony cartridge, as a package with my Transrotor turntable when I bought it second hand:


Hey Matt -do you have the Manual for the tonearm? I tried looking online but had very little luck. What I did find relates to VTA. - looks like you loosen a set stew in the arm base and raise or lower the back of the arm to set VTA. It is a rotate - pivot arm. What is concerning is the lack of anti-skate which is needed to keep the cartridge from "pushing against inner or outer sides of the grooves"


I'm clueless about such things. Sorry. (I didn't have to do much investigating in to tone arms, since this came with my turntable).




I don't think I can turn the arm in terms of directly altering azimuth. But I believe that since I use the Mint Tractor set up (custom made for that arm) it suggests everything is dialed in very well. I don't believe the arm has an anti-skate adjustment (I think they reject that for some reason). I don't adjust VTA (don't think I can) but VTF is using a standard cartridge scale, adjusted by ear, within the range recommended by Benz Micro.

This reminds me: I've had this new cartridge for a couple years now and I should check with my USB microscope how the needle is looking.

Matt - do you have the manual for the arm. Anti-skate is needed.
 
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MattHooper

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Looking online apparently that thumb screw at the back of the headshell is to loosen the headshell to get your overhang as well at adjusting the azimuth all at once, which sounds like a PITA.. but that's where you can twist the cart to dial in the Azimuth.. apparently..

Thanks.

Sorry, you need about 200x optical with proper lighting to get a look. Those USB scopes are mainly digital zoom - no bueno.

It's good enough to see if there's a lot of gunk around my needle. There was. I got a bunch off with my Flux Sonic "ultrasonic stylus cleaner."

Matt - do you have the manual for the arm. Anti-skate is needed.

Acoustic Solid is against anti-skate adjustments - thinks ultimately it's more harm than good. Not a feature on this arm.

The last time I adjusted the cartridge (maybe year and a half ago?) with the mint protractor I managed to hit a wonderful sweet spot. Best sound I've heard
from my turntable. It still sounds fantastic so I'm not touching a thing until I have to.
 

Bob from Florida

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Thanks.



Acoustic Solid is against anti-skate adjustments - thinks ultimately it's more harm than good. Not a feature on this arm.

The last time I adjusted the cartridge (maybe year and a half ago?) with the mint protractor I managed to hit a wonderful sweet spot. Best sound I've heard
from my turntable. It still sounds fantastic so I'm not touching a thing until I have to.

They must be selectively against anti-skate because other arms they sell have it.

If you have a test record - such as Hi Fi News - with an unmodulated blank track, you can drop the needle at beginning of that track and see if it "flies" inward. The wire twist inside the arm base will give you some anti-skate - assuming it has the correct direction of twist. Testing it should tell you if you are okay or way out of whack on anti-skate. If it runs towards the center of the record on the unmodulated track, you could be causing excessive wear of the micro line profile on one side. Proper anti-skate results in a slow drift inward on the unmodulated track. There are a few companies out there against anti-skate, but whatever is supposedly gained something else changes in response. Personally, I think lack of anti-skate is simply bullshit. You can always choose not to use it.....
 
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Bob from Florida

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Here is a good reference from Sound Smith. I forgot to mention this in my above reply. Any record can be used for setting and verifying anti-skate. After the last track the blank area with the spiral groove is a good test area. Stylus should move just ahead of the spiral without being "pushed" by the spiral once your anti-skate is set correctly. Relying on the bias tracks on your test record often results in too high anti-skate. You will never get the 4th bias track on Hi Fi News to play undistorted unless you set anti-skate way too high.

 

morillon

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the subject is quite debated... until its withdrawal... (a practice which is observed most often with large diameter conical cartridges and important vtf)
it's just a false title of the recent hfn tests which suggests that for the anti skating setting when it's just torture beaches! not for antiskating..!!! the last two beaches in particular!
historically we made adjustments on ranges from 300hz to max 15db .. (see the tests of the old hfn ...)
some point out that it is an already enormous value which imposes strong permanent torments on the cantilever and the suspension for very rare situations at high level...
the ultimate offers him a simple test at 12db ... more reasonable
on the other hand, the idea of using smooth test with no signal etc. is a nice idea to explain the principle... this fact is often due to ignorance..
but must be done on signal.. friction being in the equation
(funny, since the 80s serious manufacturers pointed to different values and needs depending on the type of cut of the diamond..)
ps
I don't fit into the controversy...and the language barrier will prevent me...
just try to explain a bit
 
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spiral scratch

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^^^ what he said. Testing antiskate on unmodulated groove is meaningless. Antiskate is good, especially at the start of a LP where centrifugal force is greatest. Good antiskate design will adjust accordingly to lessen effect as arm moves towards centre. I guess as you move into higher VTF it might be less important, but if you're VTF settings are in the 1.5-2gm range or less I would recommend using it.
 

morillon

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it is the observation with a classic 315hz, at mesureament or listening, the simplest to realize ..
but the biases are very controversial...
 
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anmpr1

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Acoustic Solid is against anti-skate adjustments - thinks ultimately it's more harm than good. Not a feature on this arm.

I have never been able to tell the effect of anti-skating on my listening experience. I use it because it's there. Once I experimented with my Grace 707. It's easy to disengage the device. I couldn't tell.

Some argue that the only way to accurately set it is by using a 'scope in order to determine groove distortion at a particular point on the record. Which point on the record is, I guess, an open question. I wouldn't do that, even if I had the means for it.

A guy like Fremer might. If he had an oscilloscope. Doesn't he use some kind of microscope to set VTA? But I'm not doing that.
 

Bob from Florida

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I have never been able to tell the effect of anti-skating on my listening experience. I use it because it's there. Once I experimented with my Grace 707. It's easy to disengage the device. I couldn't tell.

Some argue that the only way to accurately set it is by using a 'scope in order to determine groove distortion at a particular point on the record. Which point on the record is, I guess, an open question. I wouldn't do that, even if I had the means for it.

A guy like Fremer might. If he had an oscilloscope. Doesn't he use some kind of microscope to set VTA? But I'm not doing that.
If you did not read the Sound Smith link https://www.sound-smith.com/do-i-need-anti-skating It is definitely worth reading. Simplifies things that a lot of folks want to complicate.
 

anmpr1

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If you did not read the Sound Smith link https://www.sound-smith.com/do-i-need-anti-skating It is definitely worth reading. Simplifies things that a lot of folks want to complicate.

Well, that's certainly what Frank Schröder thinks. Soundsmith information appears to have been sourced from him. And Frank would know. Right?

I'm now reminded of a Shure TTR test record I received with a V15 cartridge. Around here, somewhere. One of the bands includes an adjustment for anti-skate--you listen to the crackling distortion, and set your anti-skating value when the horrible sound is equal in both channels. I wonder if Frank has one of those?

In any case, I just set it and forget it. Like I said, I can't hear the difference, but I know I'm missing a lot. How could I not be?

If you can hear it, and if it's important to you, get an oscilloscope, or one of the various test records, or look up Frank and see what he tells you.

I wish my ears were younger so I could hear all this stuff. Then I too could get OCD, and commiserate with the rest of the analog uber alles bunch. On the other hand, it's better to have old ears, I think. :)
 

Bob from Florida

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Well, that's certainly what Frank Schröder thinks. Soundsmith information appears to have been sourced from him. And Frank would know. Right?

I'm now reminded of a Shure TTR test record I received with a V15 cartridge. Around here, somewhere. One of the bands includes an adjustment for anti-skate--you listen to the crackling distortion, and set your anti-skating value when the horrible sound is equal in both channels. I wonder if Frank has one of those?

In any case, I just set it and forget it. Like I said, I can't hear the difference, but I know I'm missing a lot. How could I not be?

If you can hear it, and if it's important to you, get an oscilloscope, or one of the various test records, or look up Frank and see what he tells you.

I wish my ears were younger so I could hear all this stuff. Then I too could get OCD, and commiserate with the rest of the analog uber alles bunch. On the other hand, it's better to have old ears, I think. :)

For me, it is more about having neutral lateral forces on the stylus. When it is way out, I can hear distortion. When it is close, I don't hear the distortion on the first 3 Hi Fi News bias tracks. My Clearaudio Satisfy arm has a magnetic anti skate that is pretty cool. As the arm rotates 3 different magnets interact with the primary magnet - the one you adjust.
1D34D4FA-8466-4108-ADFE-6C89894E9B57.jpeg
 

EJ3

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If you did not read the Sound Smith link https://www.sound-smith.com/do-i-need-anti-skating It is definitely worth reading. Simplifies things that a lot of folks want to complicate.
I never could tell the difference EXCEPT when using a test record to set it. At any rate, for many years now, I have a Technics SL-M3, which is linear tracking (and uses the Technics T4P configuration). I presume that anti-skate is not something that I need to worry about. But the evolution of cartridges has caused a different, major problem: great T4P carts are short supply, possibly becoming made out of unobtanium in the future.
 
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MattHooper

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Thanks again on the anti-skate stuff. But as my arm doesn't have the adjustment I'm just not bothering to think about it. As I've mentioned, once I set my cartridge up well with the protractor everything sound stellar, from start of record to the end. I don't need to introduce anything more to be neurotic about :)
 

mike70

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well, when i talk with "normal" people about audio ... i really feel that i'm a kind of weird nerd or something :)
 

JP

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Thanks again on the anti-skate stuff. But as my arm doesn't have the adjustment I'm just not bothering to think about it. As I've mentioned, once I set my cartridge up well with the protractor everything sound stellar, from start of record to the end. I don't need to introduce anything more to be neurotic about :)

In that case the only assured downside would be uneven and accelerated stylus wear. The tracking force on the left side of the groove is going to be appreciably higher than the static value which may or may not be an issue depending on other factors. There's also the risk of miss-tracking on the right groove to some degree from the converse affect.
 
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