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Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!

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paulgyro

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Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
It seems you are suggesting that JBL 4367 is the junk food of speakers. This isn't Klipsch. Look at Erin's Audio Corner and you will see these are objectively very good speakers and sound alive at the same time. I'd love to have these an a set of Salon2 in my room to A/B/X but that's not going to happen...
 
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paulgyro

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So....what? It is obvious a Revel (or any similarly small speaker) is not going to sound like a JBL 4367, whether the test is done blind, double blind, triple blind - upside down, inverted, next dimension blind or any other kind of blinding event you choose.

Small speakers are small, because they are what sells and what people (and their wives) will accept in their rooms. They are a significant compromise when reproducing sound and are never going to get close to imitating a real sound in the way a high quality large speaker will.

There is just something a large speaker like the JBL does, almost certainly related to how easily and efficiently it moves large amounts of air, that allows it to sound rather truer to life than any small speaker. You can produce as many graphs as you like, this will always and forever remain the same. This is something that is evident not only at loud volumes, but ones well within the smaller speakers limits too.

Small speakers are highly compromised. People won't admit as much because they want to point to x amount of graphs that are besides the point. They are missing the wood for the trees.
I get your point but know the F208 and F228Be aren't small speakers at all!
 

ROOSKIE

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Out of curiosity, is this preference for horn speakers documented in any of the research with blind testing done by Dr. Toole or others?
Like most things that we wish were, I do not believe so.
Many, many, many things that would be cool have tested in blind tests have not yet been done (publicly)

Each Harman product should be blind tested against worthy competition, at least I think they still do that before releasing the product...

The Salon and M2 were tested for fun and results published somewhere.
 
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paulgyro

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Like most things that we wish were, I do not believe so.
Many, many, many things that would be cool have tested in blind tests have not yet been done (publicly)

Each Harman product should be blind tested against worthy competition, at least I think they still do that before releasing the product...

The Salon and M2 were tested for fun and results published somewhere.
Now that comparison should be very illuminating as the 4367 is said to be the passive incarnation of the M2.
 

ROOSKIE

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Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
The only person I am close with who wants that is my Gf's kid Simon and he is 12. He also likes Kale and fresh green juice and eats raw cucumbers like mad. Wild little guy.
 
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paulgyro

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Not exactly same position... But personally revel sounded quite bit lean...

Which is better? Depends on condition and Genre but thought 4367 suits my living room better and moved Revel to another room.


About CDs being more dynamic and life-like I disagree though...

In small room I was astonished by 8351...

Just 1.2m away so distance is the limiting factor but still,

compared to the 2.5m 4" compression driver(same room) I found conventional domes can sound so 'real'.
Wow, talk about the best of both worlds and the Genelec 8351b on top of it. You have access to some of the best speakers on the planet. Have you done a detailed review of 4367 vs Salon2 by chance?
 

ROOSKIE

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Yeah, they probably neglected to adjust level for speaker sensivity…now you know just how huge the preference can be when you turn up the volume!
IMHO You don't adjust the volume for speaker sensitivity. That is not possible or helpful IMHO.

Matching the speakers anechoic sensitivity/SPL is actually a very nearly impossible task as many elements make this far more complex than we would like.

The best way I have found is to match the average in room steady state SPL from the listening position using pink noise playing only 500-3000hrz. That way the matching is via the mids and lower treble.

Still even with this one can see how vastly different the Steady state SPL is in make-up of say a wide dispersion vs a narrow. This could be a crazy different experience with one SPL consisting of far more reflections vs the other and thus perception of loudness and it may be very subjective depending how a individual brains handles it all. Still I get the feeling of a reasonably fair fight doing it this way and can't come up with a better way. Matching the anechoic sensitivity is pointless due in room sensitivity varying by a notable amount ... that varying especially with regard to dispersion.

Anyway I have heard enough wide, average and narrow dispersion designs now to be confident there is a huge, huge difference and how that difference is perceived can vary. One listen to say my BMR's and then the Klipsch Rp-600m and it is pretty shocking and perceived SPL is hard to guage as well with high accuracy until the ears adjust to the very different sonic landscape.
 

SDC

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Wow, talk about the best of both worlds and the Genelec 8351b on top of it. You have access to some of the best speakers on the planet. Have you done a detailed review of 4367 vs Salon2 by chance?


I have measurement at LP, they both are terrible without room correction but salon has a bit more bump on top.
Subjectively I can't find better word then lean.

When my condition is good Salon sounds more wide and airy.
But when bad it is thin and sharp.

Had some fun when watching movies cause salon's stereo magic makes 2ch movies more enjoyable.

Music I prefer warm and dense feeling of 4367.

But I don't get the term 'life like dynamic'. using horns and domes but they all do what they are supposed to, no extra dynamics generated...
 

ROOSKIE

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I have measurement at LP, they both are terrible without room correction but salon has a bit more bump on top.
Subjectively I can't find better word then lean.

When my condition is good Salon sounds more wide and airy.
But when bad it is thin and sharp.

Had some fun when watching movies cause salon's stereo magic makes 2ch movies more enjoyable.

Music I prefer warm and dense feeling of 4367.

But I don't get the term 'life like dynamic'. using horns and domes but they all do what they are supposed to, no extra dynamics generated...
What kind of measurements are those?
They seem a bit rough.
Might want to make listening windows or steady state MMM measures if those are not.
They appear to be one single measurement.

I have found that some domes are quite dynamic but not all speakers are equal in dynamics.
Especially as one pushes speakers toward their limits. Pushing the Salon and the 4367 to their limits is hard due to the extremely high limits but with many speakers it is a consideration.

Some thing say $500, like the JBL 530, they seem to have a much more dynamic tweeter (handles higher SPL peaks and high level listening with ease) vs a typical 1" dome in that price class. In my testing it was very obvious at high SPL, in fact so obvious that is seemed like daylight. That does not mean that it would beat all domes as for example my REVEL M126be appears more dynamic vs the 530. Of course that is a $$$$$ Be tweeter vs a bottom priced compression driver $.

I would be cool to blind test for dynamics but that is hard as many other variations in the speakers performance may contribute. It would be hard to isolate just dynamics.
 

Newman

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IMHO You don't adjust the volume for speaker sensitivity. That is not possible or helpful IMHO.
Come off it, of course 'you' do.
Matching the speakers anechoic sensitivity/SPL is actually a very nearly impossible task as many elements make this far more complex than we would like.

The best way I have found is to match the average in room steady state SPL from the listening position using pink noise playing only 500-3000hrz. That way the matching is via the mids and lower treble.
Well that's what I meant anyways! OP didn't do it (except roughly by ear, sighted) and left himself exposed IMHO.
 
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Newman

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Out of curiosity, is this preference for horn speakers documented in any of the research with blind testing done by Dr. Toole or others?
Like most things that we wish were, I do not believe so.
Many, many, many things that would be cool have tested in blind tests have not yet been done (publicly)
The Salon and M2 were tested for fun and results published somewhere.
Yes, and Salon won. Blind test of course.


I bet if it was a sighted test, the outcome would not have been the same, and we would be reading a thread rather like this one!

Amir's personal listening comparison of Salon and 4367, link.

It is obvious a Revel (or any similarly small speaker) is not going to sound like a JBL 4367, whether the test is done blind, double blind, triple blind - upside down, inverted, next dimension blind or any other kind of blinding event you choose.

Well, let me just say that the organiser of the above-mentioned blind test said that participants were often surprised when it was revealed which speaker they were listening to! So much for your dead certainty that it would be 'blindingly' obvious.
 
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theREALdotnet

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I think a big clue as to why some speakers sound more alive than others lies in this measurement:

1659420132098.png


1659420158505.png


(taken straight from Erin’s site, I hope he doesn’t mind)
 

Tom C

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Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
All I can say is, I resemble that remark…and I’m over 60.
 

ROOSKIE

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Yes, and Salon won. Blind test of course. I bet if it was a sighted test, the outcome would not have been the same, and we would be reading a thread rather like this one!
The stereo portion was sighted. The mono section was blind.

Not sure if "won" is the best term.
The Salon was preferred more often in that test. For those who did prefer the M2 that probably matters. Some also said they were not sure if they actually had a preference.
"We had 11 critical listeners over the last two days, plus myself and my crew, for a total of 15 scores. Out of the 15, three people consistently preferred the M2s over the Salons2, while the rest preferred the Salon2s generally. We also had three people who consistently preferred the Salon2s down the line, track by track, while the "middle group" tended to prefer the Salon2s, tilting the results in their favor."-AVS
"HOWEVER, I don't want this to come across like a "Speaker A DESTROYED Speaker B" result. Both speakers are incredible, and many people were surprised when the actual speakers were revealed. And many times the Revel would receive a 9 out of 10 score on a track, while the M2 got an 8."

Ultimately the M2 is designed for studio use which does usually involve significant room treatment so being a bit narrower in dispersion should work better in such a space vs a wider dispersion that utilizes uninhibited reflections to create the spaciousness.
Also overly spacious sound may not be optimal for content creation. Toole does suggest so in his book.

Who knows, I'd love to be in a similar test of 2 such speakers.

I don't know about the M2 or the Salon as I have never heard either but if I did the test of AB or ABX with the Klipsch RP-600m (very narrow) and the BMR (very wide) I am quite certain I would get it correct very often if not essentially always. They are very different. (Much more different in dispersion vs the M2&Salon)
 
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Bugal1998

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Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
This may come as somewhat of a shock to you... but not once in my whole-entire-life-ever-so-far have I listened to music for my health. :p But if I did, I somehow doubt a "bland" speaker (your inference) would be better for me than a speaker I happen to enjoy more.

What is it about the M2/4367 that's too sweet/salty/fatty compared to Revel? Curious what deficiencies I missed by being left to 'my own devices'.

P. S. LOL I happen to live in--and love!--the quiet country side.
 
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Bugal1998

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Yes, and Salon won. Blind test of course. I bet if it was a sighted test, the outcome would not have been the same, and we would be reading a thread rather like this one!


Amir's personal listening comparison of Salon and 4367, link.



Well, let me just say that the organiser of the above-mentioned blind test said that participants were often surprised when it was revealed which speaker they were listening to! So much for your dead certainty that it would be 'blindingly' obvious.
I suspect I'd prefer a wider dispersion speaker in mono, and it's probable that I would have had a slight preference for the Salon had I been at the shootout... But just a guess based on the assumption that my hearing and preferences generally align with the population.

At least one attendee owned M2s, bought Salons after the shootout because he preferred them during the shootout, and then lived with both in his home while waiting for the M2s to sell. In the interval, he realised he preferred the M2 in real world listening and sold the Salons.

Since I can't do a true A/B test, I just tell myself I would have also had the same experience as that member. :D
 

Newman

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At least one attendee owned M2s, bought Salons after the shootout because he preferred them during the shootout, and then lived with both in his home while waiting for the M2s to sell. In the interval, he realised he preferred the M2 in real world listening and sold the Salons.
People have to stop confusing themselves (and their readers when they report their impressions).

What he didn't report properly was that it was his cognitive bias that was prejudicing him in favour of the M2 -- ie he preferred the idea of the M2 and couldn't overcome that prejudice when sighted listening.

His decision to report it, even to believe it, as 'preferred the M2 in real world listening', is truly deluded if it is meant to imply he preferred the sound waves when in the 'real world'. He has demonstrated to himself which sound waves he prefers -- the Revel's. But instead of resigning himself to acknowledging that he has to keep the speaker from which he prefers the sound waves less -- because he can't stop his non-sonic prejudices from overwhelming his actual sound wave preference -- he twists it into thinking it has something to do with the test conditions not being realistic.

It's the standard audiophile delusion all over again, ie "what I am hearing, sighted, is so clear that it must be in the sound waves - it simply has to be."

Nope. It ain't.
 

Bugal1998

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People have to stop confusing themselves (and their readers when they report their impressions).

What he didn't report properly was that it was his cognitive bias that was prejudicing him in favour of the M2 -- ie he preferred the idea of the M2 and couldn't overcome that prejudice when sighted listening.

His decision to report it, even to believe it, as 'preferred the M2 in real world listening', is truly deluded if it is meant to imply he preferred the sound waves when in the 'real world'. He has demonstrated to himself which sound waves he prefers -- the Revel's. But instead of resigning himself to acknowledging that he has to keep the speaker from which he prefers the sound waves less -- because he can't stop his non-sonic prejudices from overwhelming his actual sound wave preference -- he twists it into thinking it has something to do with the test conditions not being realistic.

It's the standard audiophile delusion all over again, ie "what I am hearing, sighted, is so clear that it must be in the sound waves - it simply has to be."

Nope. It ain't.
'Real world' was my term for his listening reports in his own system vs. the shootout.

And yes... Shame on him for telling the world what he preferred to own. :rolleyes:

And wow... calling him deluded as if you have the authority to declare what is and 'ain' t in the sound waves'. And how, pray tell, do you know that?

You don't.

The blind shootout wasn't EQ'd. So which speaker's raw frequency response had the greatest deviation from preference? How do you know that some--or all--attendees wouldn't have preferred a different speaker with different EQ applied? You don't.

Do you know if he was using EQ in his personal system? What about automatic room correction? Do you know which one? If so, how do you know what effect room correction might have had on the tonality of each speaker in his system? You don't.

And yet you say he's deluded and you somehow know what wasn't in his soundwaves?

We have no idea what variables led him to prefer one speaker over another in his system, and perhaps most importantly we don't have a blind test that demonstrates preference with each speaker fully optimized.

Perhaps we should stop inferring more credibility to this incomplete and amateur blind speaker test than is warranted. Read it with interest, but also understand the limitations.
 

goat76

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People have to stop confusing themselves (and their readers when they report their impressions).

What he didn't report properly was that it was his cognitive bias that was prejudicing him in favour of the M2 -- ie he preferred the idea of the M2 and couldn't overcome that prejudice when sighted listening.

His decision to report it, even to believe it, as 'preferred the M2 in real world listening', is truly deluded if it is meant to imply he preferred the sound waves when in the 'real world'. He has demonstrated to himself which sound waves he prefers -- the Revel's. But instead of resigning himself to acknowledging that he has to keep the speaker from which he prefers the sound waves less -- because he can't stop his non-sonic prejudices from overwhelming his actual sound wave preference -- he twists it into thinking it has something to do with the test conditions not being realistic.

It's the standard audiophile delusion all over again, ie "what I am hearing, sighted, is so clear that it must be in the sound waves - it simply has to be."

Nope. It ain't.
That's a lot of conclusions from a relatively short text, he didn't even say the shootout was a blind test, just a shootout between two speakers.

But even if it was a blind test, does it matter if he preferred other aspects of the speakers than just the sound, he will probably not be listening blind for the rest of his life.

I think he probably wanted the new Revels to sound better than his old speakers, everyone wants the new investment to be an upgrade. Sometimes the new sound can seem to be more impressive just because it's something new, a fresh sound from what he’s used to.
But I also think a longer period of time listening to pair of speakers can reveal things you don't like about them, things you didn't noticed right away.

Is it that strange if someone prefers the M2 over the Revels? :)
 
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