Headphone Measurements Using Brüel & Kjær 5128 HATS

[Jimbob54]

Well our budget is $9995 over @solderdude effort.

I think if we keep our goal clear , wheat from chuff and even if we get ambitious and want something reliable enough for developing EQ we have $9995 to throw at that ..

Chuff all chaff

 

[PeteL]

Well our budget is $9995 over @solderdude effort.

I think if we keep our goal clear , wheat from chuff and even if we get ambitious and want something reliable enough for developing EQ we have $9995 to throw at that ..

I guess the mini DSP EARS (199$) kinda works. I have it and it's been useful for me, but we are used to ASR being the reference go to place for measurments.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

Something that might be nice to see if can be measured to a useful level is noise isolation. Something of a second level figure of merit, and one not always applicable, but if one is in the market for closed back cans, one is often there because noise isolation is a factor. A full spectrum isolation measurement would be rather nice to have when evaluating the choices. Clearly quality of the seal is a big part of this, so it may not be straightforward, much like bass extension.

 

[PeteL]

Well our budget is $9995 over @solderdude effort.

I think if we keep our goal clear , wheat from chuff and even if we get ambitious and want something reliable enough for developing EQ we have $9995 to throw at that ..

9995 will not even pay for the mold of the left ear, and that's after it's been modelized

 

[Cahudson42]

it's interesting to see the distortion measurements of the different headphones so far and seeing the well renowned HD650 almost leading the field in this respect....another reason for it's good sound beyond it's frequency response

+1 I think it's fair to say that up until recently in speaker tests the effects of distortion over 0.5 % has not been fully realized. Not surprising if headphones distortions are discovered to be as important.

Once you have added distortion, it's not going away. You can try to pound it down with EQ, but it's not been removed. You are stuck with it downstream.

So, FR and distortion. Both of which seem to be able to be done with REW and UMIK for speakers, and EARS for headphones

 

[Robbo99999]

+1 I think it's fair to say that up until recently in speaker tests the effects of distortion over 0.5 % has not been fully realized. Not surprising if headphones distortions are discovered to be as important.

Once you have added distortion, it's not going away. You can try to pound it down with EQ, but it's not been removed. You are stuck with it downstream.

So, FR and distortion. Both of which seem to be able to be done with REW and UMIK for speakers, and EARS for headphones

Yes, and it would be doubly interesting to see distortion after EQ too, which often involves EQ boost of the low bass, which is arguably the most likely candidate for increased measured distortion. It's said that it's harder to hear distortion in lower frequencies but from what I understand distortion in lower frequencies can mask or not allow the headphone to reproduce the rest of the frequency range with the same clarity it otherwise would.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, and it would be doubly interesting to see distortion after EQ too, which often involves EQ boost of the low bass, which is arguably the most likely candidate for increased measured distortion. It's said that it's harder to hear distortion in lower frequencies but from what I understand distortion in lower frequencies can mask or not allow the headphone to reproduce the rest of the frequency range with the same clarity it otherwise would.

I have a sneaky feeling that what some people like about the heavier EQ profiles , as well as the obvious change in FR, is that it brings some increased and possibly audible distortion into the mix.

 

[Robbo99999]

I have a sneaky feeling that what some people like about the heavier EQ profiles , as well as the obvious change in FR, is that it brings some increased and possibly audible distortion into the mix.

Tubes FTW, well not FTW! Although they probably wouldn't be that stoked about the loss of detail in the rest of the frequency range that distortion of the bass can bring about, so it's probably not quite the same thing as Tubes.

 

[Jimbob54]

Tubes FTW, well not FTW! Although they probably wouldn't be that stoked about the loss of detail in the rest of the frequency range that distortion of the bass can bring about, so it's probably not quite the same thing as Tubes.

Quite.

 

[Robbo99999]

@Jimbob54, you got a lot of different phones haven't you? Have you got some of the ones on trial here by Amir? You could try out some Oratory1990 EQ's vs EQ's based on the measurements being done here? Mad_Economist has created a variety of different Target Frequency Response Curves that could be EQ'd towards. (Initial comparisons of most interest would be using the most similar Target Curve created by Mad_Economist to that which Oratory1990 uses.....which is 2018 Harman which may help see how much B&K 5128 differs from GRAS in terms of sucessful EQ - I mean it would only be one data point, but I'm certainly gonna do that if any headphones I own get tested here).

EDIT: I could probably create some EQ profiles over the period of a day or two (due to time allowing) for anyone who wants to do something similar. (slight disclaimer: I say this now unless I come across some technical hurdles, but I don't think so.)

 

[JustIntonation]

@amirm The high frequencies in pretty much all these headphones are a sea of wild peaks and troughs. Are you confident this rig isn't reflecting/cancelling at these HF frequencies?

Are headphones really that bad at HF?

Yes headphones are that bad at HF.
On top of that comes the lack of natural and personal HRTF. And on top of that comes the lack of bass sensation.
Headphones are not a replacement for speakers in a treated room, they cannot come close to the soundquality.

 

[Robbo99999]

Yes headphones are that bad at HF.
On top of that comes the lack of natural and personal HRTF. And on top of that comes the lack of bass sensation.
Headphones are not a replacement for speakers in a treated room, they cannot come close to the soundquality.

I agree with some of that, but due to lack of room modes at low frequencies and the amount of detail that headphones can resolve in the music for their comparatively low cost in comparison to speakers, then they have an enjoyment and importance that most cannot achieve with speakers....at least within certain elements of the music. For instance I got Sennheiser HD600 and JBL 308p Mkii's and sometimes I enjoy and feel like using the headphones more & sometimes the speakers, they do different things better on the same tracks so it comes down to mood in terms of choosing which to listen to. I imagine that if you were a music creator then you might choose to mix certain bits of your music using speakers and some parts using headphones, playing to the strengths of each.

EDIT: I probably shouldn't add anymore to this specific discussion as it's a bit off topic with the core of this thread....Amir even put in a specific part in his OP that he didn't want this thread going off topic, so I apologise in advance if this has taken it off topic briefly.

 

[Jimbob54]

@Jimbob54, you got a lot of different phones haven't you? Have you got some of the ones on trial here by Amir? You could try out some Oratory1990 EQ's vs EQ's based on the measurements being done here? Mad_Economist has created a variety of different Target Frequency Response Curves that could be EQ'd towards. (Initial comparisons of most interest would be using the most similar Target Curve created by Mad_Economist to that which Oratory1990 uses.....which is 2018 Harman which may help see how much B&K 5128 differs from GRAS in terms of sucessful EQ - I mean it would only be one data point, but I'm certainly gonna do that if any headphones I own get tested here).

EDIT: I could probably create some EQ profiles over the period of a day or two (due to time allowing) for anyone who wants to do something similar. (slight disclaimer: I say this now unless I come across some technical hurdles, but I don't think so.)

I have the Ether CX(pads swapped though, so would have to put stock back on) - I have debated getting the 6xx/650 for just that reason!

Also, I am notoriously bad at hearing/ detecting/ describing differences. Also, dont like EQ more than a few dB in any direction. Everything starts to go too low and mushy.

EDIT- interesting to see the Ether CX score best for distortion out of the small test population. My own experience is that they are "flat" (in the not very exciting/fizzy , rather than FR sense) and perhaps this is why- good DAC into good amp into these is going to be about as distortion free as you are going to get I reckon.

 

[Chocomel]

I don't think some lesser Measurement system like a (DIY) flatplate or an ears is worth Amir's time. Plenty of people produce Measurements of such quality (and also better ones). In that case think it's better spend on doing more source gear and speaker Measurements.

The 5128 is especially interesting because of it being a new system and there is no one currently doing public Measurements with it.

 

[JIW]

The head is sitting on top of the noisy APx555 but I thought I share some THD measurements.

[...]

Sennheiser HD-650:
View attachment 78394

Wow, the HD-650 is quite clean! The Sony seems the worst.

Comparing to @solderdude's measurements of various HD650, it seems you have what is generally called the black (screen) driver version. The current version is the silver driver version. The same goes for the HD600. See image below.

Black driver distortion.

Silver driver distortion.

Note the spike between 5 and 6 kHz, the spike(s) between 1 and 2 kHz being closer to 1 kHz and the dip at 1 kHz.

The frequency response also seems to be different.
Silver driver FR and distortion.

Black driver FR and distortion.

Also just FR. Red is the black driver and green is the silver driver.

 

[solderdude]

A note about the distortion levels of the silverscreen, these are taken in a headphone store where the owner was moving around an working.
The black screen is in a bedroom in the house.
For this reason you may see some peaks and elevation that isn't there in reality.

Also note that the tonal differences between the black and silver driver are primarily caused by the different compression of the pads.
Below the black driver with new pads (taken at home) vs the 2017 (silverscreen) taken in the mentioned store.

 

[Palex]

I am going to sleep.

I have got confused) At me 650, it makes sense to change for Hifiman he-400i 2020?

 

[bt3]

Love this thread/comments. Thanks Amir, and thanks to those who designed the original Sennheiser HD650 way back when.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yea , time for witness protection for me I think lol

While I know I gave Amir a hard time over some of his subjective speaker claims, I very much value his speaker measurements and think they’re filling a real need that perhaps only Soundstage is addressing (much more slowly).

In contrast, there are lots of sources of headphone measurements, and the delta between home measurements and megabuck rigs is much smaller for headphones than for speakers. Headphone taste is also much more subjective, both based on the research and on biological and ergonomic variation from person to person related to fit, ear shape, etc. So I think Thomas’s sense that headphone measurements will lead to more aggravation is correct.

Given that, I think ASR’s speaker measurements are likely to be much more valuable in a time/money per measurement sense than the headphone measurements will be. But that’s just my humble opinion.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Can I say that I love that there’s a handle on the right side of this thing? Would love to see someone carrying it down the street like a briefcase.