HDMI ARC + Network Music Streamer for Active Speakers?

[echopraxia]

Does anyone here have recommendations for a good solution here to hook up active speakers to a TV via HDMI ARC and also use for streaming music? My current Sonos Amp does this perfectly with my passive speakers, but I am moving more towards active speakers (e.g. I much prefer my Neumann KH310 over my Revel F206). Currently, I want to find a way to connect my Neumann KH310s to a TV and also use them for music streaming when the TV is turned off.

• Requirement: HDMI ARC audio input with ability to control volume via HDMI ARC signals [*].
• Requirement: Stereo analog outputs via RCA or XLR.
• Requirement: Needs to be able to stream music from Spotify at least when the TV is not turned on.
• Optional: Would be nice to have digital SPDIF outputs (either RCA, BNC, or TOSLINK optical would all be fine for digital outputs)
• Bonus: Would be nice to have more than just stereo outputs (e.g. 2.1, 3.1, 5.1, 7.1 would all be nice but not necessary right now for me).
• Bonus: Would be ideal if the unit is relatively slim and low profile, like the Sonos Amp is. A huge AVR receiver is unnecessarily large and I wouldn't even be using the amp sections, for example.

The Sonos Port definitely does not work, since it doesn't even have digital inputs of any kind let alone HDMI ARC. So far, the best options I can find are AVRs which have some of their own internet streaming features sometimes, and of course will support HDMI ARC. But they're usually quite bulky (with amp sections I don't need) and have lackluster internet streaming capabilities.

[*] The convenience and simplicity benefits of HDMI ARC are extremely important to me. I would only consider alternate solutions (e.g. programmable universal remotes) if no better options existed. But a vastly better solution does exist, and it is called HDMI ARC! Digital streamers supporting HDMI ARC inputs do exist in the $500-$600 price range. Therefore there is no reason I can justify going any direction that does not support HDMI ARC; it would be a huge regression in technological progress and convenience.

 

[echopraxia]

Example: The closest thing I can find so far is the Marantz NR1510, since it supports HDMI ARC, isn't extremely oversized, and has pre-amp RCA outputs for left and right channels (though the 5 channel power amplifier capability would be wasted).

 

[johaneks]

I have not tried it or seen any tests or measurements, but how about the Canton Smart Connect?
https://www.canton.de/en/smart/smart-connect-5.1?number=04021

 

[echopraxia]

I have not tried it or seen any tests or measurements, but how about the Canton Smart Connect?
https://www.canton.de/en/smart/smart-connect-5.1?number=04021

That looks pretty good. Too bad it doesn't seem to have any dealers in the US, but I assume I can probably get it shipped internationally from Europe if it ends up being the best option for me. However, ironically, it seems a bit more expensive than the Marantz NR1510 which is capable of mostly the same (though the Marantz doesn't have preamp outputs for more than 2.1) and also has power amplifiers built in (even though I wouldn't use them).

 

[Catalo]

Following this thread, as I also prefer active monitors and am interested in a device that meets a lot of the same criteria (especially multichannel output and/or coax output.)

The Oppo UDP-203 and UDP-205 meet a lot of your criteria (minus Spotify built-in), and it's too bad they're discontinued. The UDP-205 is pricey, and I'm not sure if the 7.1ch RCA outputs measure as well as the stereo outputs. The UDP-203 is more reasonable but unmeasured on ASR as far as I know.

Like you mentioned, the Sonos amp (and Bluesound) has HDMI ARC, but I'm not counting on them adding it to the Port or Node in the future. I wish the Port had a digital in.

The Canton Smart looks pretty good and may be based on WiSA, but I don't see that listed specifically. In the next few years, we may have some more interesting options with WiSA and hopefully some speaker-agnostic receivers and adapters. (https://www.phonar.de/english/wireless_hifi_eng.html ???)

I'm skeptical of HDMI to 7.1 extractors (like Essence Evolve II or options for <$100 off Amazon), and they lack volume control. It'd be nice to see measurements on some <$1k balanced pre/pros like the IOTAVX 7.1 or Outlaw 976.

@echopraxia, would you consider foregoing HDMI ARC if you could control the "preamp" device with a Logitech Harmony? If so, that opens up quite a few options using toslink out of the TV.

1. Toslink -> DAC -> Sonos Port RCA in -> Speakers
2. Toslink -> Bluesound Node 2i (mini optical in) -> DAC (external or built-in) -> Speakers
3. Toslink -> DAC with remote (lots of options) -> Speakers

The Port, Node2i, and MiniDSP SHD have coax outputs and can stream Spotify with TV off. For option 3, you could use your streamer of choice plugged into the spare USB or coax input of the DAC and switch inputs via remote.

The Sonos Port RCA in/out are unmeasured and may not be great if they're comparable to Amir's measurement of the amp RCA in.

I tried the Node 2i but returned it. It made a concerning popping noise any time I switched to the mini optical input, and I didn't care for the Bluesound interface compared to Sonos (though either way I'd probably use Spotify Connect instead.)

I personally have a pair of JBL 708P speakers in my living room for mixed TV and music use, and I use the RME ADI-2 DAC as a preamp controlled with a Logitech Harmony remote, which works great and passed WAF. The TV button turns on the TV and switches the RME to toslink. The music button does not turn on the TV and switches the RME to USB (hooked up to a small PC with Spotify, and I use Spotify Connect from my phone.) I like that the volume level on the RME screen is visible from the couch, and there's a myriad of other things to like about the RME (reliability, PEQ, loudness, etc.)

 

[Kundroc]

One possible option is Linn DSM range of products. Akurate DSM or Selekt DSM fulfill all requirements and the first & last bonus. However, a very pricy solution. If you decide to go second hand for an Akurate, check the device has a HDMI-2 board fitted (can be upgraded if needed).

 

[Sprint]

@echopraxia: What did you decide? I also want to replace my Yamaha AVR RX-V775 and go for a 5.2 pre-amp with RCA or balanced output for Genelec 8340 surround set up. Hence following this thread.

 

[echopraxia]

I still haven't decided yet. There is no clearly winner so far:

Marantz NR1510: As strange as it seems to buy an AVR with 5 amplifier output channels only to solely use its two RCA front L/R preamp outputs, the Marantz NR1510 remains among the most cost-effective and readily available products I've found that does everything I need. In my experience, Marantz/Denon's HEOS streaming system works just fine, and I have actually had less glitches from it than Sonos. Of course, it won't sync up with my other Sonos Amp, but then again neither will any other non-Sonos product so it's pointless anyway to hope for that outside of the Sonos ecosystem.

Canton Smart Connect 5.1: This option seems to be the best so far in terms of features that I'd want long term, but don't need right now. It also feels more efficient since it solves almost exactly the problem I want to solve, and no more (i.e. no amplifiers that would go unused). However, I do wish it had digital outputs as well. The main downside of this option is, I simply don't know how I would purchase it! I can't find it for purchase anywhere in the US, or online, for that matter.

IMO the only viable alternate to the Marantz NR1510 would be something that costs significantly less, unless it offers some must-have functionality that justifies the price or difficulty in acquiring it. The Canton Smart Connect 5.1 is an appealing option, but I worry generally about products that are so hard to acquire. If it's so hard to buy in the first place, I can't imagine how difficulty it would be arranging replacements or dealing with warranty if needed.

 

[echopraxia]

One possible option is Linn DSM range of products. Akurate DSM or Selekt DSM fulfill all requirements and the first & last bonus. However, a very pricy solution. If you decide to go second hand for an Akurate, check the device has a HDMI-2 board fitted (can be upgraded if needed).

I appreciate the suggestion, but these prices are just utterly absurd to the point of being scammy: $7000 for an AVR that doesn't even have significantly better output connectivity than a $600 Marantz, much worse connectivity than the €500 Canton Smart Connect 5.1, and certainly has no objective measurements posted to justify the extreme price in any way (if such a thing were even justifiable).

Without serious objective justification of the price, this is yet another snakeoil audiophile scam. I refuse to entertain scams, including used bargains of scam products. Even if their engineers managed to exceed the theoretical limits of audio perfection, there's still no point -- you won't hear more than a few percent difference anyway, since the vast majority of sound quality differences come from your speakers. This is the kind of money that should be allocated to speaker upgrades, not AVRs.

 

[steve59]

Check out the Meridian 218 to see if it has the connections you need, optical digital out from the tv has sync (I don't use mine in ht so just reading specs). it's reasonably priced small enough to hide and is the controller for my active speakers.

 

[echopraxia]

would you consider foregoing HDMI ARC if you could control the "preamp" device with a Logitech Harmony? If so, that opens up quite a few options using toslink out of the TV.

Not at this point. A remote like the Logitech Harmony is fairly expensive, and I just don't see the point when HDMI ARC solutions do exist for $500-$600 already. The Logitech Harmony alone would eat into half that budget.

 

[richard12511]

I still haven't decided yet. It's strange that, while products exist as mentioned above, almost all of them are more expensive and/or harder to acquire than simply buying a entry-level AVR with RCA preamp outs like the Marantz I linked (and simply not using the amplified outputs it provides).

It's for this reason that I always try to push back a bit when people suggest adding an "Amp Tax" on top of passive speaker prices when comparing them with actives at the budget level. Saying $300 actives should be compared to $700 passives($300 + $400 AVR) because you don't need to buy and amp doesn't make sense to me, as it depends. Actives might be cheaper, but they might not. It depends on the situation and use case. Often times the "connectivity tax" is more expensive than the "amp tax" for HT use cases. It's kinda amazing the amount of functionality you can get from a $400 AVR. I wish they would make cheap $400 AVRs with pre-outs(and you could even remove the amps).

 

[echopraxia]

Check out the Meridian 218 to see if it has the connections you need, optical digital out from the tv has sync (I don't use mine in ht so just reading specs). it's reasonably priced small enough to hide and is the controller for my active speakers.

It looks like this does not accept HDMI ARC. This rules it out, when solutions in the $500-$600 price range exist that support HDMI ARC.

The convenience and simplicity benefits of HDMI ARC are extremely important to me. I would only consider alternate solutions (e.g. programmable universal remotes) if no better options existed. But a vastly better solution does exist, and it is called HDMI ARC! Digital streamers supporting HDMI ARC inputs do exist in the $500-$600 price range. Therefore there is no reason I can justify going any direction that does not support HDMI ARC; it would be a huge regression in technological progress and convenience.

IMO, HDMI ARC is the perfect elegant solution to this common situation: Connecting external audio system with internet music streaming capabilities to a smart TV while maintaining the smart TV's existing remote and volume controls (e.g. without introducing a second remote into the picture, or fiddling with universal remotes that may or may suit the TV as well as the manufacturer's remote).

 

[echopraxia]

It's for this reason that I always try to push back a bit when people suggest adding an "Amp Tax" on top of passive speaker prices when comparing them with actives at the budget level. Saying $300 actives should be compared to $700 passives($300 + $400 AVR) because you don't need to buy and amp doesn't make sense to me, as it depends. Actives might be cheaper, but they might not. It depends on the situation and use case. Often times the "connectivity tax" is more expensive than the "amp tax" for HT use cases. It's kinda amazing the amount of functionality you can get from a $400 AVR. I wish they would make cheap $400 AVRs with pre-outs(and you could even remove the amps).

Well, firstly it depends on whether you're going for home theater setup, or a PC audio/music setup.

For PC setups, active speakers are a much better option because the amp tax is very real: At worst, the $80 Topping D10 provides all the connectivity options necessary to connect any active speaker optimally to your PC via USB. It serves as an excellent DAC if you use the analog RCA outputs, and also has optical TOSLINK and coaxial SPDIF outputs, which I currently use to digitally connect to my Genelec 8351Bs.

For home theater setups, it depends on how much power you need. For low power or entry-level home theaters, yeah it certainly is the most cost effective to go with a cheap 5.1 AVR and a bunch of cheap but decent quality speakers.

But if you want a higher end setup, it gets expensive no matter what you do. It would be quite expensive to find an AVR whose amplifier power matches that of my active speakers (300 - 500 watts per channel).

And I find that my Neumanns outperform even the best passive speakers of similar price, e.g. my Neumann KH310 dominates my Revel F206 in virtually every respect (most obviously in terms of bass extension, power, and overall flatter frequency response that leads to no recessed frequencies). I could probably get the F206 to come very close with DSP, but that would add much more cost to the signal chain, and hassle I would prefer not to have to deal with in the first place in this price range. (The only exception so far are my Ascend Sierra Towers, which I need to compare side by side to be sure -- but have a horizontal treble dispersion advantage that nothing else can really beat, if horizontal treble dispersion is what you want.)

 

[BDWoody]

It looks like this does not accept HDMI ARC. This rules it out, when solutions in the $500-$600 price range exist that support HDMI ARC.

The convenience and simplicity benefits of HDMI ARC are extremely important to me. I would consider a more complex solution with programmable universal remotes only if no other alternate existed. But HDMI ARC does exist, and once you experience the convenience and simplicity it offers, it's clear that anything else would be a technological regression.

IMO, HDMI ARC is the perfect elegant solution to this common situation: Connecting external audio system to a smart TV while maintaining the smart TV's existing remote and volume controls without introducing a second remote into the picture (or fiddling with universal remotes that may or may suit the TV as well as the manufacturer's remote).

There is therefore no reason I can see to justify going a direction that does not use HDMI ARC.

I ended up getting an Integra 80.3 preamp/processor when I was trying to figure out the same thing a while back that had balanced outs. They go for about $500, and can do a lot of tricks.

 

[richard12511]

Well, firstly it depends on whether you're going for home theater setup, or a PC audio/music setup.

For PC setups, active speakers are a much better option because the amp tax is very real: At worst, the $80 Topping D10 provides all the connectivity options necessary to connect any active speaker optimally to your PC via USB. It serves as an excellent DAC if you use the analog RCA outputs, and also has optical TOSLINK and coaxial SPDIF outputs, which I currently use to digitally connect to my Genelec 8351Bs.

For home theater setups, it depends on how much power you need. For low power or entry-level home theaters, yeah it certainly is the most cost effective to go with a cheap 5.1 AVR and a bunch of cheap but decent quality speakers.

But if you want a higher end setup, it gets expensive no matter what you do. It would be quite expensive to find an AVR whose amplifier power matches that of my active speakers (300 - 500 watts per channel).

And I find that my Neumanns outperform even the best passive speakers of similar price, e.g. my Neumann KH310 dominates my Revel F206 in virtually every respect (most obviously in terms of bass extension, power, and overall flatter frequency response that leads to no recessed frequencies). I could probably get the F206 to come very close with DSP, but that would add much more cost to the signal chain, and hassle I would prefer not to have to deal with in the first place in this price range. (The only exception so far are my Ascend Sierra Towers, which I need to compare side by side to be sure -- but have a horizontal treble dispersion advantage that nothing else can really beat, if horizontal treble dispersion is what you want.)

I agree with almost everything here, except for one point(kinda), "F206 to come very close with DSP, but that would add much more cost to the signal chain". This depends on the active speaker you're talking about. Many actives only comes with speaker EQ, so you'd still need to buy something for room eq, regardless of active or passive. Of course there are actives that come with their own room EQ, so your point would be true in that case.

I think for pc audio and music, actives will give better price/performance.
I think for entry level HT/Multi-channel music, passives will give better price/performance.
I think for high end HT/Multi-channel music, actives will give better price/performance, with maybe a few exceptions. For example, I have some doubts that any actives could beat the Salon 2 for under $22k, unless you prefer narrow dispersion(which some seem to).


Back to the topic though, I've sidetracked us . I think that Marantz is going to be hard to beat. I'm looking at it now, and it gives you A LOT for $599. I honestly didn't know you could find an AVR with pre-outs, streaming, bass management, room eq, hdmi arc, ect. I always thought the cheapest solutions were around $1,300-$1,500. I guess the limitation here is just 2 channel pre-out? Damn, I'm actually thinking of buying one now. I'm using a $300 Onyx Artist 1-2 audio interface in my office to listen to JBL 308p speakers, but I don't have any of those features. I've got a couple subs lying around that I'm not using, and I'm thinking I could really improve the sound in my office.

That AVR seems like a steal, unless I'm missing something.

 

[echopraxia]

Back to the topic though, I've sidetracked us

That's okay, this is an interesting/fun discussion anyway

This depends on the active speaker you're talking about. Many actives only comes with speaker EQ, so you'd still need to buy something for room eq, regardless of active or passive. Of course there are actives that come with their own room EQ, so your point would be true in that case.

In my case, I compared the Revel F206 and Neumann KH310A in the same room, in the same positions, both without any EQ or subwoofer integration. Even without any EQ, the Neumann KH310's frequency response is far flatter than the F206, and extends much deeper in bass without any midbass hump etc. This is extremely audible, and is what I assume leads to the KH310 dominating subjective preference comparisons for just about any content vs the F206 in the same room.

I think that Marantz is going to be hard to beat. I'm looking at it now, and it gives you A LOT for $599. I honestly didn't know you could find an AVR with pre-outs, streaming, bass management, room eq, hdmi arc, ect. I always thought the cheapest solutions were around $1,300-$1,500. I guess the limitation here is just 2 channel pre-out?

Yeah that's the only major limitation, I think. I wish they would at least add a center channel pre-out. I don't need it, but I could totally see a near-ideal home theater setup with L/C/R actives and the surrounds being passive speakers (which actually does simplify the wiring vs actives, which is nice) since I don't think the quality of the surrounds as much as the L/C/R speakers.

 

[echopraxia]

bass management, room eq

I think the main disadvantage might be the quality and customization of bass management and room EQ. It will not compare to solutions from Dirac, Genelec, or even MiniDSP, etc. in terms of customization/optimization capabilities. I think you can get good results with bass EQ though, but by default Audessy applies room EQ to the whole frequency spectrum and that ends up making it just sound worse in my experience. You have to buy a separate app to be able to set the cuttoff frequency for room EQ (and other features), but I haven't yet tried that on my Marantz. I probably should, especially if it allows custom fine-grained EQ control. I just was mostly annoyed by the idea of having to buy a separate app just to unlock all my AVR's features

 

[echopraxia]

I ended up getting an Integra 80.3 preamp/processor when I was trying to figure out the same thing a while back that had balanced outs. They go for about $500, and can do a lot of tricks.

As far as I can tell, this is a $2600 product, not $500. What am I missing?

 

[BDWoody]

As far as I can tell, this is a $2600 product, not $500. What am I missing?

I believe that was retail price when new.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324193038730

I paid about $550 for mine a couple years ago I believe. There is also the AVR version, which has built in amps.