GoldenSounds passes apparently ABX test for DACs (NOT Really)

[Ken Tajalli]

For a 20khz fundamental there are harmonics at lower frequencies
For instance, a cymbal crash might have a strong element at 20kHz, but it will also have harmonics at 10kHz, 5kHz, and so on, which contribute to the bright, sharp sound we perceive.

What you are saying is true, but irrelevant here,
The two pieces of music in question, have almost the same bandwidth. The only difference in bandwidth, is around 20-22 kHz.
So all the 5kHz to 20kHz content are present in both pieces of music.

 

[ads_cft222]

What you are saying is true, but irrelevant here,
The two pieces of music in question, have almost the same bandwidth. The only difference in bandwidth, is around 20-22 kHz.
So all the 5kHz to 20kHz content are present in both pieces of music.

If there is a difference in this region why this difference cannot extend to the respective lower harmonics ?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

If there is a difference in this region why this difference cannot extend to the respective lower harmonics ?

It is the same piece of music (go back and read the earliest posts), the piece has been processed through two different filters. One cuts off everything at 21kHz and above, the other filter, allows a little bit of 21kHz to go through. This "little bit" has been suggested as the main avenue by which GoldenEars has been able to tell them apart.
I don't think so.

 

[ads_cft222]

It is the same piece of music (go back and read the earliest posts), the piece has been processed through two different filters. One cuts of everything at 21kHz and above, the other filter, allows a little bit of 21kHz to go through. This "little bit" has been suggested as the main avenue by which GoldenEars has been able to tell them apart.
I don't think so.

Alright a little googling suggests probable differences between filters in group delay and phase response. Maybe this can be the case

 

[voodooless]

Alright a little googling suggests probable differences between filters in group delay and phase response. Maybe this can be the case

The files were time aligned, and both filters were phase linear.

 

[raest]

. . . those bloody subjectivists!
If only you could get your hands on 'em . . .

jesus dude. what the flying F. each post of yours is a dumbfounding crescendo of WTFs. my brain, it shudders, when it is exposed to your empty drivel

 

[VientoB]

absolutely!
hence, it could not be the 21kHz audibility.
Look for another reason.

I don’t buy that there’s a 100db threshold for 20kHz. That would mean every time you did a hearing test you’d be subjected to noise levels where you should be wearing hearing protection.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I don’t buy that there’s a 100db threshold for 20kHz. That would mean every time you did a hearing test you’d be subjected to noise levels where you should be wearing hearing protection.

No No.
If you look at the recent hearing threshold chart that was posted recently, you can see that even a young person can just about hear 20Khz tones only if the levels are pretty high. about 100dB or so. GoldenEars himself says in the video, that he make out the sound if he really pushes the volume up.
At hearing tests, they don't go beyond 10kHz. for that you need much lower levels.

 

[VientoB]

No No.
If you look at the recent hearing threshold chart that was posted recently, you can see that even a young person can just about hear 20Khz tones only if the levels are pretty high. about 100dB or so. GoldenEars himself says in the video, that he make out the sound if he really pushes the volume up.
At hearing tests, they don't go beyond 10kHz. for that you need much lower levels.

No that’s not correct. GoldenSound said he can hear even higher than21kHz if he pushes up the volume.

 

[Purité Audio]

He couldn't be Rob Watt's lovechild.
Keith

 

[VientoB]

A study of 352 human subjects between 10 and 65 yr old having clinically normal-hearing thresholds. The graph includes error bars which represent the spread for 95% of the participants. You can see for yourself how exceptional it is to have a meaningful level of hearing above 20kHz.

View attachment 367520

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221903004_Behavioral_Hearing_Thresholds_Between_0125_and_20_kHz_Using_Depth-Compensated_Ear_Simulator_Calibration

The flaw with this study is sample size. And also I’d like to point out that there were clearly some people in the study who could hear 20kHz at around 90db. The graph shows a range for each age group. Look at the low point on the range. those people are most likely to hear that tone in a hearing test.

Look at the 20kHz points for the first two age groups. They’re fairly close, and that goes up to age 35. After 35 the sample size drops and you’re going to end up with more and more people who have suffered occupational hearing loss etc.

If people who can hear 21kHz in a hearing test are, say, 1% of lower age groups, then the sample size isn’t big enough to make sure they measured one of those people.

Also, as I’ve already said, I’d like to know why the threshold drops from 19kHz to 20kHz

 

[Cbdb2]

For a 20khz fundamental there are harmonics at lower frequencies

For instance, a cymbal crash might have a strong element at 20kHz, but it will also have harmonics at 10kHz, 5kHz, and so on, which contribute to the bright, sharp sound we perceive.

The fundamental is the lowest frequency.
The fundamental frequency, often referred to simply as the fundamental, is defined as the lowest frequency of a periodic waveform. In music, the fundamental is the musical pitch of a note that is perceived as the lowest partial present. Wikipedia

There are many instruments whos fundamentals are at lower amplitude than the harmonics. Instruments , including cymbals, have most of there sound power below 10khz and very little, if any above 20khz. Making an instrument that puts out above 20khz is like making a flashlight that puts out ultraviolet. So to hear anything in music above 20khz when the content below 10khz is at least 20db louder and Fletcher-Munson increases that gap another 10db is unbelievable. If you add 20db at 20khz with EQ maybe.

 

[Thomas_A]

How many others have tried these files here on ASR? Any young with good ears? Is there are spectral time plot 1 kHz-23 kHz around?

 

[Blumlein 88]

How many others have tried these files here on ASR? Any young with good ears? Is there are spectral time plot 1 kHz-23 kHz around?

You can get about any info you want from the Deltawave software. I don't recall if that one is posted earlier in the thread. Download the software and files and you can look at it any way you wish.

 

[kemmler3D]

For a 20khz fundamental there are harmonics at lower frequencies

For instance, a cymbal crash might have a strong element at 20kHz, but it will also have harmonics at 10kHz, 5kHz, and so on, which contribute to the bright, sharp sound we perceive.

Sorry, but this is incorrect in a few ways.

First of all, while nearly all of the energy from a cymbal crash is below 20khz, that's not the fundamental, and in fact cymbals aren't usually referred to has having "a fundamental frequency" because a lot of percussion, especially cymbals, usually has an inharmonic spectrum, not harmonic. This means the frequencies in its spectrum are NOT spaced in a nice multiple-of-integer ratio, based on a fundamental frequency, they're sort of all over the place.

Also, harmonics appearing below the fundamental are usually called "subharmonics" and are rare in any acoustic system. Almost always, harmonics appear above the fundamental frequency, not below.

To illustrate, here is the spectrum of a single, basic, short cymbal crash sample I had on my HD:

 

[Thomas_A]

You can get about any info you want from the Deltawave software. I don't recall if that one is posted earlier in the thread. Download the software and files and you can look at it any way you wish.

Went through the thread and there is one Delta-wave plot but did not remember if there is one vs time.

(Asks for curiosity and lack of computer. I’ve been hospitalized since Tuesday…)

 

[Thomas_A]

Sorry, but this is incorrect in a few ways.

First of all, while nearly all of the energy from a cymbal crash is below 20khz, that's not the fundamental, and in fact cymbals aren't usually referred to has having "a fundamental frequency" because a lot of percussion, especially cymbals, usually has an inharmonic spectrum, not harmonic. This means the frequencies in its spectrum are NOT spaced in a nice multiple-of-integer ratio, based on a fundamental frequency, they're sort of all over the place.

Also, harmonics appearing below the fundamental are usually called "subharmonics" and are rare in any acoustic system. Almost always, harmonics appear above the fundamental frequency, not below.

To illustrate, here is the spectrum of a single, basic, short cymbal crash sample I had on my HD:

View attachment 367597

That kind of info would be good for the file of test. Are there HF peaks in the test song that lacks any related fundamentals in time? One could certainly add short-timed high SPL HF bursts that may audible to some.

 

[VientoB]

Sorry, but this is incorrect in a few ways.

First of all, while nearly all of the energy from a cymbal crash is below 20khz, that's not the fundamental, and in fact cymbals aren't usually referred to has having "a fundamental frequency" because a lot of percussion, especially cymbals, usually has an inharmonic spectrum, not harmonic. This means the frequencies in its spectrum are NOT spaced in a nice multiple-of-integer ratio, based on a fundamental frequency, they're sort of all over the place.

Also, harmonics appearing below the fundamental are usually called "subharmonics" and are rare in any acoustic system. Almost always, harmonics appear above the fundamental frequency, not below.

To illustrate, here is the spectrum of a single, basic, short cymbal crash sample I had on my HD:

View attachment 367597

There’s a peak there at 22kHz which is only 15db less than the highest peak.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Spectrum over time for normal filter. The other is just the same except the ultrasonic level of noise. No music signal is up there.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Went through the thread and there is one Delta-wave plot but did not remember if there is one vs time.

(Asks for curiosity and lack of computer. I’ve been hospitalized since Tuesday…)

Posted the spectrum. Hope you get well and out of the hospital.