I still don't think the material the driver is made of is a major determining factor beyond anything already explained by the frequency response and distortion.
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Focal Utopia Review (Headphone)
- Thread starter amirm
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Beryllium might have lower distortion or allow the construction of thinner diaphragms, but on the other hand it is a good justification of charging a lot more for maybe just the same or hardly improved performance.
Yeah, I mean maybe on average some materials fair better than others when it comes to the frequency response & distortion measurements, but like we're saying, it's the results that matter and not the material used. I'm sure more exotic sounding materials are used in marketing to lure people in.
Thank you for the advice. I’ve been listening to the Monarch Mk2 now for an hour. They are excellent. Very resolving. Similar tonality to the EQd Utopia and Truthear, but seem to handle dynamics with less distortion and compression than the Truthear. The clarity on female and male vocals is breathtaking. I would hope Amir gets a chance to test a pair to see if his measurements match my impressions.@PGAMiami I think diminishing returns really starts with the Blessing 2 Dusk at $329, it's already that good.
It's very well tuned. Stuff above that is mainly just doing one or other thing slightly better. And in many cases, more expensive stuff isn't overall better, I do have a few more expensive IEMs like the Beyerdynamic Xelento ($1,000) which although I do like it for what it does (great bass) I don't think it's better than the Dusk, the treble is harsher.
If I had to pick one IEM, it would probably be the Monarch Mk2, that sounds right to me and for me it's comfortable. It's quite large though so while I get a really good snug fit others may vary.
If I was prioritizing comfort above sound, the Sony IER-M9 and Sennheiser IE600 are particularly comfortable. Both are quite compact. But I don't think sound is quite at the level of the Monarch Mk2. And in the case of the Sennheiser, there is tuning foam in the tips, limiting you to the Sennheiser tips for the desired stock tuning, and many people don't get on great with them.
I don't think spending more is any guarantee of better, I haven't heard the Angie, but looking at that graph I don't think I'd take it over the Dusk at 1/6th of the price. Part of this is preferences but I have an idea of what I like and don't, and that wouldn't be it.
So I think I'd say, Monarch Mk2- but might be no harm trying the Blessing2 Dusk first simply as it's so much cheaper, really not that far off, and I think if you like the tuning on the Dusk, you'd like the Monarch Mk2, it's sort of like a refined version of the Dusk. I have an idea of my sound preference at this point, and it's pretty much that. But it took a bit of trying different stuff before I worked out this was pretty much my ideal sound signature.
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You know how it works, just send them in, I guess many more people would like to know, especially the low distortion and better dynamics claims.
This is the before and after for the TAD R1s when EQd in my room. While it’s not a headphone, it’s my reference when trying to decide if something sound correct or not. the Utopía at least to my ears are very similar in tone.
Appeals to authority aren't valid if you're not appealing to an actual professional in the field (cf. below).
It's not just a hypothesis. It's the consequence of the physics involved, stated by an acoustic engineer who actually measures and helps design headphones for a living with a deep and extensive knowledge of headphone acoustics:
There seems to be some misunderstanding and conflation of the terms 'fully open front volume' and 'fully open headphone' by some in this thread. Yes, the Utopia and HD800 are both fully open headphones i.e. they have 'open' front and back volumes. But this does not mean they both have equally, 'fully' (i.e. no obstruction to pressure/airflow escape to the environment) open front volumes. Some open front volumes are more open than others. Their front volumes are both damped, but this won't be to the same degree, and this damping affects bass extension (including at 10 Hz and below, and no this is not talking only about static pressure as some would have you believe). Here Oratory says the Focal Clear's (which has a similar design to the Utopia) greater front volume damping compared to the HD800 results in its better bass:
And here a description of the HD800's minimal front volume damping:
Now let's take a look at the frequency responses of the Utopia and HD800 post Oratory's EQs.
Utopia:
HD800:
The Utopia clearly has less of a drop-off at 10 Hz. So, the reason the Utopia has more bass punch than the HD800 even when they're both EQed to the 'same' response? They're not EQed to the same response. Not below 20 Hz, down to 10 Hz, and highly likely not below that. And the main reason for their differing sub-20 Hz response? The Utopia, while still having an 'open' front volume, this volume is more damped, with a lower Helmholtz resonance frequency, resulting in a lower, shallower bass drop-off, and so greater bass extension below 20 Hz. All explained by Oratory here:
Yawn, you are repeating the same posts and quotes again and again, this does not make them any more true. Yes I admit it, the Utopia has a lot more bass below 10Hz! But in the region above 100 kHz the HD800 is superior!
They're a fallacy full stop if you're trying to construct an argument anyway.
It's also a bit tiresome when it comprises the large majority of your interventions on this forum.
It is as long as "punchy" doesn't have an operational definition. What you're proposing is an explanation why the Utopia would have a higher bass response below 20Hz than the HD800, not an explanation why one would be "punchier" than the other.
You're the one who brought up the question of static pressure ad nauseam, not me.
Indeed, but the difference above 20Hz is likely to exceed by a very large amount in terms of magnitude and bandwidth the respective differences in the 10-20Hz band.
I don't really understand why you're bringing up the post-EQ result as the residual difference in the 10-20Hz band will then be for the most part a product of the EQ design, not the headphones.
But anyway, this is the sort of difference you're agonising over :
Now the real problem is that once someone picks their own headphones and EQ them to a target following presets, they'll encounter a more significant issue. I don't have a pair of Utopia and HD800 on hands but this is six open dynamics EQed to the same target according to Oratory's presets, measured a few weeks ago with in-ear microphones, showing the difference between the Clear MG compensated to a flat line and the others :
Post EQ, the Clear MG has a superb response in the 10-20Hz indeed (albeit nothing to write home about compared to some other headphones I've tested in this way, if "punch" is related to response below 20Hz, you should look elsewhere). But is it that important given the residual difference either sample variation, coupling issues, or a combination of both, introduced above 20Hz ? Would you sincerely tell us that the differences in the 10-20Hz band, which audibility is... debatable, particularly with music as a signal, is as important as the one above, where the audibility of differences of a bandwidth and magnitude as shown above is demonstrated ?
When I wrote in This post that "the likelihood that a pair of HD800S and Utopia are reaching a reasonably close FR on your head once EQed to the same target is quite high below a few kHz, and not so much above.", my own definition of "reasonably close" is the graph above, ie at best a 3-4dB broadband residual difference below a few hundred Hz if normalised at 500Hz, and given these headphones' design, that's as good as it's going to get without involving active headphones with a feedback mechanism. And that's without even considering the residual differences above 1kHz, which, and this is just me, often play an important part in how I'll perceive a pair of headphones' bass response.
There's a much simpler way anyway to assess whether or not frequencies below 20Hz are responsible with these headphones for any perceptual difference : why not directly compare whether or not you can actually hear a difference by comparing a full band response with one with a careful designed high-pass or peak filter ? Even better, since you like to harass people in such a way, why not prove to us that you can successfully pass an A/B test ?
We wouldn't have these fruitless interventions on your part if you wasted less of your time being a keyboard warrior and actually tested for yourself your own hypotheses.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
The question is where 'punch' resides.
As Oratory mentioned the completely sealed front volume is one of the reasons. Oratory does not state it is THE reason.
Punch in music usually is originating from the bass drum and (at least for speakers) also interacts with the body, not so with headphones.
Unless my definition of 'punch' is wrong (not the drink b.t.w.)
IF bass extension is really THE reason than 'punch' should go away in the LCD2 when lifting the pads even just a tad. This does not happen.
If punch is indeed in the 100-150 Hz region (which I as well as Dan 'believes') then one can EQ it in. Surely this isn't entirely the case either as too much of it turns a headphone 'muddy'.
It is a combination of things and sealed front volume is (probably) part of it too as are resonances, pad bounce, frequency response and maybe even high amounts of distortion.
As Oratory mentioned the completely sealed front volume is one of the reasons. Oratory does not state it is THE reason.
Punch in music usually is originating from the bass drum and (at least for speakers) also interacts with the body, not so with headphones.
Unless my definition of 'punch' is wrong (not the drink b.t.w.)
IF bass extension is really THE reason than 'punch' should go away in the LCD2 when lifting the pads even just a tad. This does not happen.
If punch is indeed in the 100-150 Hz region (which I as well as Dan 'believes') then one can EQ it in. Surely this isn't entirely the case either as too much of it turns a headphone 'muddy'.
It is a combination of things and sealed front volume is (probably) part of it too as are resonances, pad bounce, frequency response and maybe even high amounts of distortion.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
I don't know, I have never eaten a headphone, Focal or other brand.
Have consumed punch now and then and don't think it was toxic nor did it comply to EU safety standards (whatever they may be)
Wrong thread? Or are you talking about several users' repeatedly salty, snarky posts that leave a bitter taste in the mouth?
Pretty toxic I'd say.
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No, but when EQed to have the same bass quantity (which is the comparison we're talking about), it is the most important factor:
We're talking about punch specifically in headphones. But yes punch is primarily down to tactile bass (that's felt rather than heard). Obviously headphones have much less of this than speakers, but it's noteworthy that sub-20 Hz frequencies are felt on the pinna, skull and even by the eardrum.
That's due to the air gap introducing a Helmholtz resonance:
Indeed it's not. You need proper bass extension for proper bass punch. Listening only to music without significant (percussive) sub-bass, including <20 Hz (which exists in real life) will fool you into thinking a mid-bass boost is all you need (which is also what happened with the air gap Helmholtz boost above).
The main part (given decent quantity of >20 Hz bass).
Show up in frequency response.
I don't see how pads absorbing bass frequencies (if that's what this is supposed to mean) could possibly contribute to bass punch. Anyway again, this will show up in frequency response.
Audeze LCDs have some of the lowest distortion of all, and some of the greatest perceived bass punch, so that can't be it.
Bingo. In particular, amount of bass extension below 20 Hz, when two headphones are EQed to the same (Harman) target above this, which again is the comparison we're talking about, in order to reduce confounding variables and pinpoint the primary required condition for bass punch.
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Please explain which of Oratory's statements I quoted are wrong and why.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
IEMs can be punchy (and cannot) yet won't shake earlobes and skull. I don't think the bass felt in the chest/stomach can be replaced by increasing < 20Hz to give the same sensation. By that extension the pinna and skull also cannot substitute that.
Breaking seal of the LCD series results in a steep roll-off in the <20Hz region and a lift just above it, yet punch does not alter despite bass extension being drastically reduced.
There are also other headphones that do not have <20Hz extension and not low distortion that still are being said to have 'punch' so it is not unique to Audeze.
Yet, there are also headphones that have punch when not EQ'ed to a similar tonality and may not have closed front volume.
What is getting really boring is to have folks that have never heard the Utopia, that have limited knowledge of acoustics and electrical engineering, and think everything about how different folks experience headphones is explained by FR and distortion measurement, mocking Utopia owners in such a disrespectful way. Even Amir, who has forgotten more about acoustics and engineering than all of us combined, takes the time to listen to the products.
This should be obvious if you've ever compared IEMs with and without a front vent (analagous to the difference between headphones with open and closed front volumes.)
Of course it can't fully replace full-body tactile bass, but it can go some way to compensating the lack of it.
Also, notably those over 50 may not be best placed to judge these effects:
Like what and said by whom? Never said it was unique to Audeze.
We were discussing the relative bass punch of headphones (in this case the Utopia and HD800) EQed to the same target, doesn't necessarily have to be Harman but that's what most people will EQ to and statistically prefer. Perceived punch is a continuum dependent on degree of front volume seal and damping which are also continua, not just binary open/closed damped/undamped distinctions, and depending on what headphones someone's heard ('closed'/'open' front volume, well-damped vents, minimal damping etc) they may well find a well-damped open front volume headphone punchy relative to what they've heard (until they hear a closed front volume headphone that's even more so).
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
So.... 20Hz 0dB and 10Hz -2dB or 10Hz -4dB, on a specific test fixture, makes all the difference in 'punch'.
And all recordings that have 'punch' thus need to have sub 10Hz info in the recordings for that to make a difference is what you are trying to say.
Also... I don't know many speakers that do reach 10Hz yet there are plenty speakers having 'punch'
And all recordings that have 'punch' thus need to have sub 10Hz info in the recordings for that to make a difference is what you are trying to say.
Also... I don't know many speakers that do reach 10Hz yet there are plenty speakers having 'punch'
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On an industry standard test fixture measured by a professional. And below 10 Hz the difference will be even greater. The usual ear simulator FUD won't help you here, as the HD800(S) are very leakage tolerant and have low unit, and positional and person-to-person/person-to-rig variance as measured by Harman and Rtings, as does the Clear which has a very similar design to the Utopia.
Sub-20 Hz. And that's more common than you've been led to believe, even in genres you might not expect.
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