Focal Clear Review (headphone)

[CrankyRat]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I wanted to react to this post.

I own both the Focal Clear and RME ADI-2 PRO (which is exactly the same as the DAC for headphone playback).
When checking this track at the exact same volume of -18db in high gain mode I get no distortion/crackling at all. Really none.
This makes it very obvious that you tested a copy with faulty drivers.

BTW, how can anyone tolerate that kind of volume? I feel that volume will damage your ears.

I listened to this on the Focal Radiance and went down to -10db on the RME. No clipping and intolerably loud (handled 5 seconds max). This problem seems specific to the Clears.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I listened to this on the Focal Radiance and went down to -10db on the RME. No clipping and intolerably loud (handled 5 seconds max). This problem seems specific to the Clears.

It isn't. People have reported the same on Utopias / Elegias.

It's Focals general driver design. Contrary to normal Mylar designs, these do not compress at higher volumes. The result is that you reach maximum excursion rather easily.

On top of that, there seems to be quite the variance from unit to unit, some "clipping" much earlier than others. I can tell you that I would never actually listen to my Clear at the volume it "clips". Not if I want to be able to enjoy music 40 years from now, which I do.

 

[Tachyon88]

@Aerith Gainsborough have you seen any reports of the new MG clears clipping yet ? I'm holding out and seeing how it goes.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

@Aerith Gainsborough have you seen any reports of the new MG clears clipping yet ? I'm holding out and seeing how it goes.

Difficult to say. So far no reports yet, although some on Head-Fi have tried.
Might be that Focal improved on the driver headroom, might also be that they were too chicken to really push their new shiny toy.

 

[amirm]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I wanted to react to this post.

You should have read the thread. Some of the clears do this, some don't. It is a mechanical device after all. I quoted the company saying this happens.

 

[Wegi76]

...

I've never used APO EQ before, but it's not a good sounding EQ at all (it's pretty ugly if you ask me), I don't know how you guys can cope with it. I would definitely not recommend listening to music through it.

ATM the very best state-of-the-art EQ I would recommend is Crave EQ, in 'Transprent mode - 50 ms'. It's a VST though , but APO EQ seems to support VST so that should do it. That EQ is a GEM, it is as best as you can get.

Sorry to pull this up, but maybe it helps someone...

I was curious about Crave EQ because of melowmans post, liked it and bought a license to use it within Equalizer APO as a global EQ. However, I had problems to get the SW properly licensed. Got in contact with Keith vom Crave an he provided the following solution tho the problem.

Hi Markus

I have got a fix for Equalizer APO:

Copy the Crave DSP folder from:
C:\Users\[YOUR USERNAME]\AppData\Local

To here:
C:\Windows\ServiceProfiles\LocalService\AppData\Local

Because Equalizer APO is running as a local service to be able to intercept all audio on your system this is where you need to install the license (manually). The Crave DSP folder has your license in it.

Kind regards

Keith

The support was stunning. Although he had no experience with E-APO, he reacted super fast and came up with the solultion the next day. (over eastern!) Real powerfull EQ and I think it`s worth every penny. Thanks for the recommendation.

Cheers
Markus

 

[melowman]

Keith is an awesome guy.
And his EQ is just fabulous sounding (again, in Transparent mode). I’m glad you caught that and could hear by yourself! APO EQ is just... horrible, for lack of a better word. Don’t use that EQ for the sake of sound, and for all the guys and gals that spent so much time shaping the sound from producing to mixing to mastering!

I don’t know how APO processes sound, but beware that any EQ processing of an already mastered track will very most likely produce overshoots over 0dBFS: these overshoots have to be handled by APO before sending everything back in fixed point, otherwise they’ll be hard-clipped. How does APO handle these? Is it clipping? Hard clipping? Soft clipping? Is is limiting? With what settings?
Mastering engineers handle all this by ear and by hand, with musically and emotion in mind. A systematic, automated, robotically repeated, blind, process will definitely make non-musical damages to the sound.

Again, I don’t know how APO processes sound, but you have to be aware that processing a song after the mastering has been done is entering a very hazardous mine field. If you’re not aware of this, you’re definitely making you a disservice, you don’t know what you’re listening, you have no clue what you’re listening to.

And since Amir and this forum is fighting for high-fidelity, making damage to sound and music (which APO EQ does, and most likely any post-limiting/clipping in APO does too) is definitely a path going in the opposite, wrong, direction.

 

[Wegi76]

Yes, he really seems to be a nice guy.

To your question: In APO you can always set a negative pre-gain to avoid clipping. The Auto-Gain feature of Crave EQ also works fine, I think. I have to use EQ with my speakers to make them sound OK in my room. It is no way optimized for audio and I`m dealing with really heavy room modes here... Also, my HD660s for example do require some EQing to make them sound real good, because of their early bass roll-off. --> I have zero problems with EQ to fix the flaws of my equipment with that.

 

[J-B]

You should have read the thread. Some of the clears do this, some don't. It is a mechanical device after all. I quoted the company saying this happens.

Exactly. Some might do it, some don't.
Since you already know this I personally don't understand why the review hasn't be updated with a statement that you tested a faulty copy (even if Focal says it's designed that way). Not every copy distorts that easily at all. Don't get me wrong. I love what you're doing on this forum, but it would be more transparant to people that are potentially interested in this headphone.
My (non-faulty) copy has plenty of headroom for EQ, no issues with distortion at all.

 

[melowman]

Yes, he really seems to be a nice guy.

To your question: In APO you can always set a negative pre-gain to avoid clipping. The Auto-Gain feature of Crave EQ also works fine, I think. I have to use EQ with my speakers to make them sound OK in my room. It is no way optimized for audio and I`m dealing with really heavy room modes here... Also, my HD660s for example do require some EQing to make them sound real good, because of their early bass roll-off. --> I have zero problems with EQ to fix the flaws of my equipment with that.

Yes, but how much pre-gain?
If there a real-time peak indicator that will help, otherwise you’re just guessing..

But I’m not bashing APO (but their EQ I do), I’m just making sure that people are aware of any clipping that can happen after a post-mastering processing.

Auto-Gain in Crave EQ is not matching peaks but overall loudness (probably based on a EBU-R128-like algorithm, or some sort of weighted RMS). This will definitely not prevent overs over 0dBFS.

 

[Tachyon88]

Exactly. Some might do it, some don't.
Since you already know this I personally don't understand why the review hasn't be updated with a statement that you tested a faulty copy (even if Focal says it's designed that way). Not every copy distorts that easily at all. Don't get me wrong. I love what you're doing on this forum, but it would be more transparant to people that are potentially interested in this headphone.
My (non-faulty) copy has plenty of headroom for EQ, no issues with distortion at all.

Its not a faulty copy though, its a unit variation of a "feature" as stated by focal. If focal said its desienged that way, yet you say its a faulty copy, then I would argue that its focal not being transparent. This thread IS the transparency IMO.

 

[Robbo99999]

Yes, but how much pre-gain?
If there a real-time peak indicator that will help, otherwise you’re just guessing..

But I’m not bashing APO (but their EQ I do), I’m just making sure that people are aware of any clipping that can happen after a post-mastering processing.

Auto-Gain in Crave EQ is not matching peaks but overall loudness (probably based on a EBU-R128-like algorithm, or some sort of weighted RMS). This will definitely not prevent overs over 0dBFS.

I don't know why you're bashing EqualiserAPO, it's a very versatile program that is free, easy to use once you've got to grips with the "logic of it's system", and by no means does EqualiserAPO degrade the sound like you keep mentioning. If you create an EQ profile in EqualiserAPO, then in the Analysis Panel at the bottom of the screen you can see the effect of the filters on the Total EQ Curve, where you can also see if there is any clipping happening (over 0dBFS) - you then simply add a negative preamp filter until the Analysis Panel shows no clipping. Additionally, if you want to be sure to deal effectively with intersample overs (which I think you've been alluding to) then you simply add around an extra -2dB to the Negative Preamp above and beyond what you have worked out from the Analysis Panel. I analysed a lot of my music tracks with Orban Loudness Meter to identify the size of the intersample overs in my music tracks, and choosing the extra -2dB to cover intersample overs will cover those no problem, that's why I chose the extra -2dB.

I think you do a disservice to EqualiserAPO with your comments that don't reflect the truth of the matter, I suspect it stems from not fully understanding how to use EqualiserAPO and some of the surrounding "science".

 

[Racheski]

Yes, but how much pre-gain?
If there a real-time peak indicator that will help, otherwise you’re just guessing..

In the Peace GUI for Equalizer APO this checkbox will automatically adjust the pre-gain.

 

[melowman]

I don't know why you're bashing EqualiserAPO, it's a very versatile program that is free, easy to use once you've got to grips with the "logic of it's system", and by no means does EqualiserAPO degrade the sound like you keep mentioning. If you create an EQ profile in EqualiserAPO, then in the Analysis Panel at the bottom of the screen you can see the effect of the filters on the Total EQ Curve, where you can also see if there is any clipping happening (over 0dBFS) - you then simply add a negative preamp filter until the Analysis Panel shows no clipping. Additionally, if you want to be sure to deal effectively with intersample overs (which I think you've been alluding to) then you simply add around an extra -2dB to the Negative Preamp above and beyond what you have worked out from the Analysis Panel. I analysed a lot of my music tracks with Orban Loudness Meter to identify the size of the intersample overs in my music tracks, and choosing the extra -2dB to cover intersample overs will cover those no problem, that's why I chose the extra -2dB.

I think you do a disservice to EqualiserAPO with your comments that don't reflect the truth of the matter, I suspect it stems from not fully understanding how to use EqualiserAPO and some of the surrounding "science".

You've mixed what I said.
I said first that the APO EQ itself is bad sounding EQ. It is. And I proposed another EQ, in VST format though but which could be loaded in APO (and Wedgi76 just confirmed that it worked, via a small quirk)
That’s for the sound of the EQ.

I also made a comment to warn people that any processing happening on already-mastered tracks (that are reaching full scale or nearly full scale, should I precise if that was not straightforward to some) — like for example EQ, be it the built-in one or any other one — will probably produce overs, and if they’re not handled properly we’re going in the absolute opposite direction of what Amir and we all here aim for, which is fidelity of the source. That warning is valable for any post-processor, APO or any other program.

These were my 2 comments.

Now, guys tell me there are functionalities in APO to prevent overs, great; just be aware of the problems and the solutions. Do everybody use the “prevent clipping” functionality, or apply a pre-gain based on the peak meter and make sure it’s ok for every song they listen to? I’m not sure... So I felt the utility to raise a warning to those of you who EQ their headphones.

 

[Robbo99999]

You've mixed what I said.
I said first that the APO EQ itself is bad sounding EQ. It is. And I proposed another EQ, in VST format though but which could be loaded in APO (and Wedgi76 just confirmed that it worked, via a small quirk)
That’s for the sound of the EQ.

I also made a comment to warn people that any processing happening on already-mastered tracks (that are reaching full scale or nearly full scale, should I precise if that was not straightforward to some) — like for example EQ, be it the built-in one or any other one — will probably produce overs, and if they’re not handled properly we’re going in the absolute opposite direction of what Amir and we all here aim for, which is fidelity of the source. That warning is valable for any post-processor, APO or any other program.

These were my 2 comments.

Now, guys tell me there are functionalities in APO to prevent overs, great; just be aware of the problems and the solutions. Do everybody use the “prevent clipping” functionality, or apply a pre-gain based on the peak meter and make sure it’s ok for every song they listen to? I’m not sure... So I felt the utility to raise a warning to those of you who EQ their headphones.

I definitely take issue with your first paragraph. In no way, shape or form, is EqualiserAPO "bad sounding".....that's just utter nonsense that contains no reality or reasoning. Equaliser APO has no negative impact on the sound when using EQ if you make sure you're not digitally clipping (by making sure your negative preamp is large enough, which we've already discussed). Stop spreading FUD, there is nothing negative re EqualiserAPO re sound quality. I don't think I'm gonna say anymore on this topic, as I've said everything I can on it. Gees, I bet you have $1000 speaker cables!

 

[melowman]

Bald claims will always be bald claims
I’d be glad to explain to you the bad sound of the APO’s EQ, but since you’re in a fighting position and not a learning one, I will spare this forum this discussion.

 

[Jimbob54]

Bald claims will always be bald claims
I’d be glad to explain to you the bad sound of the APO’s EQ, but since you’re in a fighting position and not a learning one, I will spare this forum this discussion.

I'd like to hear though.

 

[BDWoody]

Bald claims will always be bald claims

For those who may not take the time to learn how to use it properly, I'm sure they could mess up a lot of things through improper or hamfisted use.

I'd like to hear though.

Don't feed the trolls...

I will spare this forum this discussion.

Awesome.

 

[Wegi76]

Hello again,

from what I read, EQs are really not all the same and can introduce unwanted artefacts like pre-ringing effects. Here`s a little article about it.

The difference between minimum-phase and linear-phase EQ on transient signals such as snare drum (adventures-in-audio.com)

No bad blood please

The Crave EQ can be tested without registration or cost. Just download and give it a try, if you want to find out for yourself, if it does make a difference or not.

Cheers
Markus

 

[Nabooh]

What would you guys think, Focal Clear vs Audeze LCD2 Fazor?

I actually have two headphones, a HD800S ( which I don't want to part with ), and the LCD2F, for when I want less clinical/cold sounding headphones, and more "laid back and relax".

I had a Focal Clear in the past, but I was worried about QC quality, especially about driver failures ( Elear, Elex ), and clipping ( Clear ).

Do you think I should sell my LCD2F ( I got a really nice price on it, complete with case, new, 699e ) and get a Focal Clear ( more expensive )?

I can also get an Elear for 300e, without having to sell anything. I really liked the Elex but I also sold it back then as I was worried about driver failure, and because I don't live in the US, it would have been a hassle for the warranty.

Tl;DR:
-Keep the LCD2F with the HD800S, not worth buying something else
-Keep the LCD2F and the HD800S, and buy the Elear for 300e
-Keep the HD800S, sell the LCD2F, and buy the clear ( a bit of money loss )

Thanks!