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Finally got some answer here. Also ask for some advice for 2 channel set up

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camerarooster

camerarooster

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Near field speakers are meant for close to listener (50 to 150 cm) reproduction and all studio monitors are like that because studio monitoring boxes are usually small. They have more narrow dispersion pattern. Regular speakers (including one's you currently have) have wider dispersion pattern and are intended for 2~3 m (or little more) distance listening.
With active near field studio monitors you don't have much use of your power amplifier.
Since my Wharfedale Diamond 220 is regular speaker, how can I set it for better near field listening? With EQ?

MiniDSP Flex is a ADC for analog two channels input, DSP (for PEQ filters (up to 10 per bank), room correction trough convolution or Dirac Live (for which you pay additional 200$ for licence)) and four chanel DAC for analog output. Yes you are right regarding crossovers but in this case you would use third and or forth chanel of MiniDSP Flex to cross the main speakers with subwoofer or two of them. Meaning with it you don't need other DAC either you use power amplifier or active speakers.
You probably can buy all what you need for the budget (as I don't know neither prices nor availability in Taiwan or Japan) and sell your power amplifier and current speakers.
I've read some thread that MiniDSP was compared to RME ADI-2 when talking about EQ and measuring functions. It seems they both lack of output ability for speakers? Considering buying MidiDSP flex cause it's can be Bluetooth streamed and also more affordable. Maybe my next gear after upgrading the speakers or adding Subwoofers.


Try to find and listen to Kali LP 6 V2 active monitors and see how you like them and if they are quiet enough regarding self noise they produce while working and not playing anything for you. They should be relatively cheap about 200$ per one (400$ for pair) if you find to be satisfied regarding how they sound to you.
Lots of others also suggest active speakers, but since my PM6006 is an integrated amp without pre out or bypass, will the signal be converted twice?
Was thinking buying a $1200 speaker and Topping DAC & amp set for $600, now I can put all the budget for better speakers if I keep the amp I'm using now.

UMIK 1 is about 100$ or a little less.
MiniDSP Flex should be about 500$ but it knows to be and more expensive so try to find it for that price if possible. You can usually get both Flex and UMIK from same source together.
Warfadale WH-D10 can usually be found for 250$.
The WH-D10 is double price in Taiwan, and looks not easily available in Japan. Any other recommendation for around $250-$400? I've filtered some review, but all the subwoofer got N/A recommendation.

If you go this way you will probably have even some money left which you can use for basic room acoustic treatment (back wall and corners with couple of absorber panels made of rock wool and corner insert ones) later on.
That's definitely something I'll try after learning EQ!
Thanks again!
 

ZolaIII

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You can try with "bandwidth" reduction I guess but not sure how much would that work (always used it to widen it a bit more my self).
I suggested active speakers (no power amplifier needed meaning you pack your PM6006 and don't use it). Pasive studio monitors are rarity this days and usually more expensive than what you could find among large selection of active one's.
What is available in Taiwan - Japan from subwoofers that is also good priced?
Hope this helps. Yamaha one's are durable but I don't like that their flower port isn't silent and not good if you want more than one (right side port). Actually I advise you to get compression siled enclosure one's.
Thought Warfadale one would be available as you got their speakers from the same series already. So idea who's to save money compared to SVS series 1000 Pro (600~700$). WH-D10 definitely isn't worth more than 300$.
To make it simple my proposal whose:
MiniDSP Flex (analog unbalanced version) which you connect to PC by USB (you have also analog, optical inputs and BT on it). Active speakers to analog outputs 1 and 2 of Flex and subwoofer or subwoofers to analog outputs 3 and 4 of Flex. So that you can do all EQ-ing, filters (including subwoofer menagement), room correction and that it serves as central volume control unit.
Your Denon does have fixed line out and line in to use it as recording loop I even marked it on the picture for lopping connection with Flex when I considered it before you showed us the room and told that you want to keep the work space.
Took a look at Ubay shop seams that evening is about 30% or more pricier there than it is in US. Main power and plugs are the same as in US (110 V 60 Hz a - b plugs)?
 
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camerarooster

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You can try with "bandwidth" reduction I guess but not sure how much would that work (always used it to widen it a bit more my self).
I suggested active speakers (no power amplifier needed meaning you pack your PM6006 and don't use it). Pasive studio monitors are rarity this days and usually more expensive than what you could find among large selection of active one's.
What is available in Taiwan - Japan from subwoofers that is also good priced?
Hope this helps. Yamaha one's are durable but I don't like that their flower port isn't silent and not good if you want more than one (right side port). Actually I advise you to get compression siled enclosure one's.
Thought Warfadale one would be available as you got their speakers from the same series already. So idea who's to save money compared to SVS series 1000 Pro (600~700$). WH-D10 definitely isn't worth more than 300$.
To make it simple my proposal whose:
MiniDSP Flex (analog unbalanced version) which you connect to PC by USB (you have also analog, optical inputs and BT on it). Active speakers to analog outputs 1 and 2 of Flex and subwoofer or subwoofers to analog outputs 3 and 4 of Flex. So that you can do all EQ-ing, filters (including subwoofer menagement), room correction and that it serves as central volume control unit.
Your Denon does have fixed line out and line in to use it as recording loop I even marked it on the picture for lopping connection with Flex when I considered it before you showed us the room and told that you want to keep the work space.
Took a look at Ubay shop seams that evening is about 30% or more pricier there than it is in US. Main power and plugs are the same as in US (110 V 60 Hz a - b plugs)?
Hi, @ZolaIII. I know active speakers look like an economic choice for me now, and Genelec 8030c is something affordable and famous, but still hesitating if I should buy passive speakers cause I'll definitely buy a miniDSP ASAP and change the setting of my furniture and workspace. Maybe I'm brainwashed for too long, trusting only passive speakers give good sound... Now I'm 70% for active speaker set.

According to the web you provide, WH-D10 is also $500 USD in Ubuy UK. I can get that with a bit more than $400USD in Taiwan. Almost sure I'll buy it cause SVS PB-1000 costs $1050 here.
Sorry, I did read the picture, just didn't get it very clear and not so familiar with how miniDSP work with the amp. Now I know how to loop it with other gears. (At first I thought loop means something like ground loop, leading the electricity to the ground?)

You mentioned "You lose possibility for high pass filter implementation this way." down the amp picture. It means I'll lose some detail or chances to make high frequency notes more audible? Sorry I can't get the connotation.
 
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ZolaIII

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Well if you wish and can provide that you sit 2 m from speakers go for pasive one's. Already mentioned you to try Elac DBR62 and Polk R200 as not to expensive but excellent one's. There are great active speakers that are better than any pasive ones but thanks to embedded DSP and such are expensive (higher tier Genelac's or Neumann's for example). Thing is with a tonally good speakers with good implemented crossovers active or pasive with good DSP will sound equally good and you can get there for lot less money.
Something like Kalis won't last you as long as pasive speakers with let's say Yamaha or Marantz power amplifier but as you can buy three pairs of Kalis for the price of good mid range consumer amp and speakers who cares.
Recording or processing loop is output from amplifier (for any function amplifier supports like; radio, streaming, CD and other regular inputs it supports) to DSP which does its work and sends it back to amplifier that then sends it to speakers.
As it's loop you can't cut a part of it like high pass that cuts low frequencies beneath the value you set as it would cut it for whole signal. Hope that clears it up.
Watch:
With auto generated translation and similar educational videos until you digest it good. Then you can interpret measurement diagrams for speakers and other things. I did mention Wharfedale WH-D10 as I know it's half the price of SVS SB 1000 and one third of SVS SB - PB 1000 Pro subwoofers and of course two Wharfedale's will work better than just one sub no matter how good it is.
It's not web shop I provided only the first such Google search showed regarding Taiwan. Try to buy all of your equipment doing the promotions and holiday seasons when there are discounts on it.
Don't rush it with Mini DSP either, you can do all it does on PC for free for the time and as you are learning. It's just a small box that is much more comfortable to use and works with all inputs it supports.
 
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camerarooster

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Well if you wish and can provide that you sit 2 m from speakers go for pasive one's. Already mentioned you to try Elac DBR62 and Polk R200 as not to expensive but excellent one's. There are great active speakers that are better than any pasive ones but thanks to embedded DSP and such are expensive (higher tier Genelac's or Neumann's for example). Thing is with a tonally good speakers with good implemented crossovers active or pasive with good DSP will sound equally good and you can get there for lot less money.
Something like Kalis won't last you as long as pasive speakers with let's say Yamaha or Marantz power amplifier but as you can buy three pairs of Kalis for the price of good mid range consumer amp and speakers who cares.
Recording or processing loop is output from amplifier (for any function amplifier supports like; radio, streaming, CD and other regular inputs it supports) to DSP which does its work and sends it back to amplifier that then sends it to speakers.
As it's loop you can't cut a part of it like high pass that cuts low frequencies beneath the value you set as it would cut it for whole signal. Hope that clears it up.
Watch:
With auto generated translation and similar educational videos until you digest it good. Then you can interpret measurement diagrams for speakers and other things. I did mention Wharfedale WH-D10 as I know it's half the price of SVS SB 1000 and one third of SVS SB - PB 1000 Pro subwoofers and of course two Wharfedale's will work better than just one sub no matter how good it is.
It's not web shop I provided only the first such Google search showed regarding Taiwan. Try to buy all of your equipment doing the promotions and holiday seasons when there are discounts on it.
Don't rush it with Mini DSP either, you can do all it does on PC for free for the time and as you are learning. It's just a small box that is much more comfortable to use and works with all inputs it supports.
I've reread all the post everyone responded, will go for active speakers, maybe Genelec 8020d or some Neumann. No more hesitated now. :) Also subwoofer, UMIK-1 piece by piece. Started studying information about EQ. Also enquired some stores here, but they sell passive speakers mostly.
The audio gears in Taiwan are almost imported, maybe that's why the price is always 60% more or doubled than they are sold in USA or Japan.
Thanks for your patience, @ZolaIII, thanks to everyone as well!
 

voodooless

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Note that the 8020d is a small speaker. It will not have a lot of output and is ideally used on a desk. For a room setup at least go for 8030c. Same goes for KH 80 DSP.
 
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camerarooster

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Note that the 8020d is a small speaker. It will not have a lot of output and is ideally used on a desk. For a room setup at least go for 8030c. Same goes for KH 80 DSP.
8030s is the ceiling of my budget this time, though I seldom listen loud, there're still chances I might need to play under high volume.
BTW, I 've checked the manuals of 8020d and KH 120, they have analog input only. Should I connect my pc digital output to my amp, then to the 8020d/ KH 120 or should I just connect my pc, sending analog signals to the speakers without amps? Which one is better?
 

voodooless

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8030s is the ceiling of my budget this time, though I seldom listen loud, there're still chances I might need to play under high volume.
Maybe second hand is an option? If your budget is $6000 a new pair of 8030 should easily fit that… at the very least this would not be the part to save money on.
BTW, I 've checked the manuals of 8020d and KH 120, they have analog input only. Should I connect my pc digital output to my amp, then to the 8020d/ KH 120 or should I just connect my pc, sending analog signals to the speakers without amps? Which one is better?
You can probably just use your PC, or buy a cheap USB DAC, ~ $150 will give you a very good one.
 

ZolaIII

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8030s is the ceiling of my budget this time, though I seldom listen loud, there're still chances I might need to play under high volume.
BTW, I 've checked the manuals of 8020d and KH 120, they have analog input only. Should I connect my pc digital output to my amp, then to the 8020d/ KH 120 or should I just connect my pc, sending analog signals to the speakers without amps? Which one is better?
Why wouldn't you try to go a cheap way instead? Audition the Kali LP 6 V2. If you like their sound as those are mid size bookshelf near field speakers and capable of sounding fine to uper 80 dB range. If you like them you can finish complete (and comprehensive) system (hopefully) with money you currently have.
 
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camerarooster

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Maybe second hand is an option? If your budget is $6000 a new pair of 8030 should easily fit that… at the very least this would not be the part to save money on.

You can probably just use your PC, or buy a cheap USB DAC, ~ $150 will give you a very good one.
Yes, second hand is a good choice. The speakers I'm using is one, economic choice. ^^
I'll loop my pc digital signals to my Marantz PM6006, and then RCA out to the speaker XLR in.
 
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camerarooster

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Why wouldn't you try to go a cheap way instead? Audition the Kali LP 6 V2. If you like their sound as those are mid size bookshelf near field speakers and capable of sounding fine to uper 80 dB range. If you like them you can finish complete (and comprehensive) system (hopefully) with money you currently have.
Found a store close to my home and they sell Kali LP 6 V2! Will try with my ear in two or three days. Kali have advanced LP8 and IN8, but since you didn't mention these two models, I guess they are not so cost/ performance high compared to LP 6.
Used my app to measure my listen sound pressure, it's around 65-75, and LP 6 runs over that! Looks like Kali LP 6 V2 fit my need and it saves a lot!
 

ZolaIII

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Yes, second hand is a good choice. The speakers I'm using is one, economic choice. ^^
I'll loop my pc digital signals to my Marantz PM6006, and then RCA out to the speaker XLR in.
Use balanced DAC 4 V output to active speakers with balanced input or you lose half the amplifier power in them just by cutting input (with adapter cables) to 2V.
I didn't mention rest becose I don't think you need larger one's and difference isn't big between LP 6 and LP 8 V2 while IN 8 have problems with cabinet resonance (between woofer and midrange driver).
If you look around and search ASR you will find reviews of all of them.
LP 6 V2 actually have the best frequency response of them but can't go as loud like LP 8.
 
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Galliardist

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I'm going to suggest a different route, just to be annoying.

While it's great to buy new speakers and so on, I think in your case I would strongly recommend adding DSP by whatever method, even if only through the computer to start with, and getting the best out of your current equipment before moving on. It will stand you in better stead for the future.

Are you likely to move into different accommodation in the not too distant future? This sounds like a student room to me, which is why I ask. You may be better off having that change of room first, if it's in the next one or two years. There's no point in finding yourself changing everything twice, if you are likely to go from a desktop to a room setup for example.
 
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camerarooster

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I'm going to suggest a different route, just to be annoying.

While it's great to buy new speakers and so on, I think in your case I would strongly recommend adding DSP by whatever method, even if only through the computer to start with, and getting the best out of your current equipment before moving on. It will stand you in better stead for the future.

Are you likely to move into different accommodation in the not too distant future? This sounds like a student room to me, which is why I ask. You may be better off having that change of room first, if it's in the next one or two years. There's no point in finding yourself changing everything twice, if you are likely to go from a desktop to a room setup for example.
Sadly it has been my room for almost 20 years, and maybe the next two decades... The house in Taiwan is quite small.
Googled DSP, looks like using EQ or some other software to make the hardware do their best?
My plan is to leave this desk set up as my pc speakers, and will make another passive speaker /home theater set up in the living in ten years.
 
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camerarooster

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Use balanced DAC 4 V output to active speakers with balanced input or you lose half the amplifier power in them just by cutting input (with adapter cables) to 2V.
I didn't mention rest becose I don't think you need larger one's and difference isn't big between LP 6 and LP 8 V2 while IN 8 have problems with cabinet resonance (between woofer and midrange driver).
If you look around and search ASR you will find reviews of all of them.
LP 6 V2 actually have the best frequency response of them but can't go as loud like LP 8.
Tried Kali Lp-6 V2 today, sounds good enough! Will order a pair tomorrow. Is there any other recommended subwoofer rather than Yamaha ones and WH-D10? I've read some thread these days, some people suggest the subwoofer are identical no matter expensive or not. (But I think the driver size still matters) The key point is EQ and/or crossover. Is the best option to buy a random one in my budget and do the DSP?
BTW, EQ looks like a skill that requires lots of time to learn and experience...
 

ZolaIII

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@camerarooster I would recommend you to go for closed enclosure subwoofer's in a small room and with enough power (W) other than that I don't have recommendations. I just mentioned one's I have and Yamahas as durable one's but I didn't go for them because port whosent silent.
Crossover is mandatory and so is EQ-ing and more important in bass region. EQ-ing isn't all that hard (only cuple types of parametric filters) to do but it doesn't always translate as expected so it takes some time to get where you want. There is some curve in learning how to do it.
Don't forget to get a measurement microphone (UMIK-1) even if you decide not to go for a self stand DSP processor for now and instead use a PC.
 
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