Finally got some answer here. Also ask for some advice for 2 channel set up

[camerarooster]

Hi everyone here, greetings from Taiwan, a country famous for making chips in your iphone and audio machines. I've always had issue how to find real useful advice for audio set up, and after five years of reading advice from EXPERT, I've finally got here!

In the beginning of my audio journey, I've tried to find knowledge from library and forum. Sadly there're not many books about audio or psychoaccoustic in Traditional Chinese,(only two in the municipal library!) and the forum is filled with rumors and myths. I visited some audio stores and you know what happened next. I'm not an engineer guy, but I always believe in SCIENCE. Glad that I just spent $60 USD for a pair of speaker cable and $35 on a hospital grade receptacle, which I believed they can improve the sound quality, but I can't hear the difference.

Always wonder if someone can measure the sound/audio gear by scientific method, and this is the place. Actually, I've found this forum before, but the language barrier stopped me from reading and studying here. (Imagine you read this forum in Japanese or Russian!我讀英文速度是中文的五分之一) I've spent around 50 hours here but still can't figure out some basic concept, also have difficulty choosing the gear.
Here is my set up now:
PC and CD player-->Marantz PM6006 (integrated amp)-->Wharfedale Diamond 220. (passive speaker)
I found some thread useful like "Search for "Endgame"? (the bad bad word) " and "How'd I know it'll be good?"
Here's my plan and some issue:
1.95 % of my usage is for speaker, 3% for headphone/IEM, 2% for cellphone or Switch. Would like to buy new speaker, budget $1000~$1500 Maybe Focal Aria 906 or KEF LS50. (I'm visiting Japan, the audio gear is much cheaper there compared to Taiwan.)
2.If I replace my PM6006 with Topping Dx5(DAC) and Topping P3AS (power amp), will the sound be audibly promoted? Do I still need preamp?
3.So far, I know the audiophile power cable makes no effect to better sound. As for speaker cable, I've read a thread, Amir suggests the shorter the better. If I get Topping DX5, since it supports XLR balanced output, is the best answer for speaker cable shorter XLR or RCA? Though I'd like to use my cable now till next upgrading.
4.Haven't read many thread about EQ, just found the key word "Dirac", will research on it.(Or some other software?)
5.The end of my 2 channel plan is budget $4000~$6000, for everything including headphone.

BTW, in Taiwan and Japan, there're really lots of audiophile... Watched a youtube, a Japanese senior built independent poles for electric cable.
Appreciate your suggestions, thanks in advance.

 

[ZolaIII]

Key word: UMIK 1 (measurement microphone) and REW (software).
Your amplifier isn't bad, speakers could be better. Try to find and listen to Elac DBR62 and Polk R200 if possible.
The DAC in PM6006 is nice CS4398 I don't think you need another one. Only thing PM6006 lacks is subwoofer out and menagement and in that regard you might want to look at MiniDSP Flex (as a processor).
No need to bother your self about cables. Unbalanced is fine for home use. Stick to normal cables with normal AWG specifications and everything will be fine.
Read a lot about EQ-ing and use of measurement microphone. There are a lot articles about it on the Internet.
Get a; subwoofer and better speakers along with measuring microphone and that will be enough for the time. Later on when you get good at EQ-ing consider something like MiniDSP Flex for independent processing and crossover menagement.
Welcome to ASR and have a nice time.

 

[Keith_W]

Welcome to the forum! I have been to Taiwan a few times. Lovely country, great food.

There is no need to replace your Marantz PM6006 integrated amp and buy new equipment. I suggest you put the money that you saved into buying better speakers instead. As for which speaker, well that is entirely personal preference.

"Dirac" is a type of speaker and room correction software. As you may know, the moment you place the speakers in your room, the frequency response changes and deviates far from the anechoic conditions it was designed to comply to. Software like Dirac allows you to take measurements and make filters to correct anomalies. To use it, you will need a microphone with either Phantom Power or USB connectors, a sound card (not needed if you have a USB microphone), and software. You should ideally also buy a microphone tripod. The last thing that you need is software, and there are many different software options, not only Dirac.

If you are using CD as a source, and you intend to have room correction software in your signal chain, you will need to think about reconfiguring your system so that all digital signals pass through your PC.

 

[luft262]

If you're going to use the speakers for movies or games as well as music you could...

1. Get and AVR that has Audyssey or DIRAC (then you'd have auto EQ and probably access to manual peqs plus Dolby etc for multimedia)

2. Get subs (I'd recommend 2) svs is great because you can manage them via the app on your phone which is way easier than fiddling with the back panel. Also, they give you PEQ filters for manual EQ

3. Get a Umik 1 and download REW so you can see what's going on in your room

4. Probably upgrade your speakers. The Aria 906s would be great or KEFs.

5. Get a center channel, rears, and apple tv device and apple music voilá! You have multi-channel music á-la Atmos

6.Enjoy!

 

[jae]

Hello, welcome to ASR! Maybe you can recognize this solo bass recording: https://voca.ro/17qzZIHfqyoG

https://www.l7audiolab.com is a good chinese-language site similar to ASR reviews for empirical reviews/measurements, maybe this will be much easier to translate to traditional Chinese for you. That site is mostly covering electronics, not really educational material. Perhaps you can ask around there if anyone has more written material in Chinese if it is easier for you to understand.

You will have to clarify some things about your budget. Do you a) want to spend $1000-1500 on the speakers now and have the eventual goal of spending $4000-5000 total on the other components like amplifier, dac, etc. over time or in the future? Or b) are you prepared to spend up to $1500 on a speaker and $2500-3500 on the other components immediately? Since you say that 95% of your listening is for speakers, the advice you will get from people here is that a majority of the budget for any system should be on the loudspeakers, so most people will suggest you spend 75%, if not as much as 90%+ on speakers alone. I would also say don't completely dismiss active speakers, many audiophiles, especially Chinese and Japanese do not seem to like them, but they are simply the best options for most systems these days.

I agree with what the others are saying. Your Marantz PM6006 may not be the absolute best measuring compared to some of the other cutting edge devices measured here, but it is at the point where there is very little if not any noticeable difference between the two because performance is already high and acceptable in most of these devices. Good loudspeakers combined with your Marantz (as long as it can power them adequately) will always sound better than a lower quality speaker combined with high quality electronics that may not be contributing much if anything to the signal you hear. By opting to keep your Marantz (at least for now), that is potentially $600-2000+ of budget saved you can put into better performing speakers for an overall better system.

Definitely buy an $80 umik-1 for taking measurements and analyzing your system in your room regardless of what speakers you buy.

I would say also look at some of your options of speakers that have been measured here: https://www.spinorama.org/scores.html If you do not understand how to read the charts the "help" section on the website is a good start. There are a couple good options for passive speakers under or near $1500, but if you put more of your budget on speakers you have a wealth of other options like Neumann, Genelec, Buchardt, Sointuva etc. If you want to output low bass notes as well (especially if you will double using the system for home theatre) you will perhaps also want to consider a subwoofer in your budget too. We can help you better if you give us more information about you room and needs.

 

[voodooless]

I would go for active speakers. Ideally ones with build in room correction. Genelec and Neumann have some excellent models, try the new KH150, review here:

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Neumann KH150 DSP 2-way studio monitor (active speaker). It is on loan from the company and costs US $1,750 (each). The design language is not changed of course. The main woofer is 6.5 inches now powered by 120 watt dedicated...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It has digital input, so you can skip the DAC as well.

Getting a sub is always a good idea, for instance KH 750 DSP if you stick to Neumann. Ideally two would be even better.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Definitely spent more on speakers if 4000 to 6000 is your total budget. This is where it matters most. Eg if 6000 is your total than spent at least 3000 to 4000 on speakers.

 

[jae]

I would go for active speakers. Ideally ones with build in room correction. Genelec and Neumann have some excellent models, try the new KH150, review here:

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Neumann KH150 DSP 2-way studio monitor (active speaker). It is on loan from the company and costs US $1,750 (each). The design language is not changed of course. The main woofer is 6.5 inches now powered by 120 watt dedicated...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It has digital input, so you can skip the DAC as well.

Getting a sub is always a good idea, for instance KH 750 DSP if you stick to Neumann. Ideally two would be even better.

That is definitely what I had in mind as well with that budget. 2x KH 150 will only cost about $3500-3800 and even without subwoofers, will probably blow away a majority of systems while also retaining good value. That remaining $500-2500 can be spent on 1-2 subwoofers (either single Neumann subwoofer or maybe 2x SVS) and treatment/DSP devices etc. A nice alternative would be the Buchardt A500 at nearly the same price for more 'audiophile' looking speakers, especially if OP did not want to mess around with subwoofers since they play lower. For passive speakers there's stuff like Sointuva, R200, Ascend Acoustics Sierra-LX at varying price points but the active options are simply more worth it overall.

For headphones you don't need to spend more than $200-800 and for iems $50-200 to get basically top of the line sound quality, so don't get fooled into spending more than that and there is always EQ to correct or change tonality.

 

[camerarooster]

Key word: UMIK 1 (measurement microphone) and REW (software).
Your amplifier isn't bad, speakers could be better. Try to find and listen to Elac DBR62 and Polk R200 if possible.
The DAC in PM6006 is nice CS4398 I don't think you need another one. Only thing PM6006 lacks is subwoofer out and menagement and in that regard you might want to look at MiniDSP Flex (as a processor).
No need to bother your self about cables. Unbalanced is fine for home use. Stick to normal cables with normal AWG specifications and everything will be fine.
Read a lot about EQ-ing and use of measurement microphone. There are a lot articles about it on the Internet.
Get a; subwoofer and better speakers along with measuring microphone and that will be enough for the time. Later on when you get good at EQ-ing consider something like MiniDSP Flex for independent processing and crossover menagement.
Welcome to ASR and have a nice time.

Thanks! You gave me a very clear direction. I've seen others mentioned UMIK 1, just thought I'll need it when I have all the gears. Will buy it soon and learn how to do EQ.
Also thanks for the cable guide, I can save the money for better speaker now!

 

[camerarooster]

Welcome to the forum! I have been to Taiwan a few times. Lovely country, great food.

There is no need to replace your Marantz PM6006 integrated amp and buy new equipment. I suggest you put the money that you saved into buying better speakers instead. As for which speaker, well that is entirely personal preference.

"Dirac" is a type of speaker and room correction software. As you may know, the moment you place the speakers in your room, the frequency response changes and deviates far from the anechoic conditions it was designed to comply to. Software like Dirac allows you to take measurements and make filters to correct anomalies. To use it, you will need a microphone with either Phantom Power or USB connectors, a sound card (not needed if you have a USB microphone), and software. You should ideally also buy a microphone tripod. The last thing that you need is software, and there are many different software options, not only Dirac.

If you are using CD as a source, and you intend to have room correction software in your signal chain, you will need to think about reconfiguring your system so that all digital signals pass through your PC.

Thanks for explaining what Dirac is. Your explanation is clear and easy to understand. Very friendly to a English-foreing-language newbie

I didn't get it very clear, the CD player is connected to my amp seperately. That allows me to listen CD without turning my pc.
Feel free to contact me if you're coming to Taiwan again, my city ,Tainan, is famous for the food and history. Always so nice to get acquainted with new friends and proud to introduce my city to others.

 

[ZolaIII]

Thanks! You gave me a very clear direction. I've seen others mentioned UMIK 1, just thought I'll need it when I have all the gears. Will buy it soon and learn how to do EQ.
Also thanks for the cable guide, I can save the money for better speaker now!

You use microphone to see (measure) what you are getting. You try and learn what can and what can't be correct by EQ.
Play with placement to see in which position that what you receive will be better.
You make your DSP (EQ, room correction and such) on PC and it only stands like that as long as you play from PC.
It's not a problem to use something like MiniDSP Flex (in order that all DSP processing which goes through it applies on all inputs and without PC) with any integrated amplifier (and to all sources it has including CD) connecting it to I/O usually marked as recorder or processor (if it has such).

You lose possibility for high pass filter implementation this way.

 

[camerarooster]

My opinions:

#1) How big is your room? If I remember correctly, Taiwanese rooms are not normally very large. Either of the aforementioned speakers will do OK.

Will you find it necessary to place the speakers close to a wall? Although the Focal has a front port, the KEF has a rear port. Be aware that very close proximity can mess with the sound of the KEF.

How far away from the speakers is your listening position? If it's close, I believe the LS50 is to be preferred.

Also, on the subject of subwoofers: do you live in an area where you can use a subwoofer with complete freedom?

#2) I see no reason to replace your PM6006.

#3) I prefer XLR, but I've also used RCA for years with no problems.

#4) Equalization software is good when it is needed. When it is not needed, why use it? Not only that, but in some instances room treatment is more productive than equalization. I would advise you to wait and see .... advance cautiously. The same applies to subwoofers.

#5) That budget should get you an excellent system.

Jim

You are right, my room is 2.5 X 4 meter,(8.2 x 13 feet), half for the bed, half for my desk.

This is my desk, the speakers are 10cm/4 inches away from the wall. All the other gears are under my desk. My ears are about 80cm/26 inch from the speaker.
If I buy a subwoofer, I have to put them under the desk, direct on the floor. Does that still make notes sound better?
I'll keep the PM6006, but have to find out how to connect the subwoofer on it.

Thanks @Jim Taylor, your reply is very easy to read.

 

[camerarooster]

If you're going to use the speakers for movies or games as well as music you could...

1. Get and AVR that has Audyssey or DIRAC (then you'd have auto EQ and probably access to manual peqs plus Dolby etc for multimedia)

2. Get subs (I'd recommend 2) svs is great because you can manage them via the app on your phone which is way easier than fiddling with the back panel. Also, they give you PEQ filters for manual EQ

3. Get a Umik 1 and download REW so you can see what's going on in your room

4. Probably upgrade your speakers. The Aria 906s would be great or KEFs.

5. Get a center channel, rears, and apple tv device and apple music voilá! You have multi-channel music á-la Atmos

6.Enjoy!

Thanks for your kind reply. Cause my room is quite too small, there's no space for multi-channel system. I'll get a UMIK 1 for EQ as you said.

 

[ZolaIII]

You are right, my room is 2.5 X 4 meter,(8.2 x 13 feet), half for the bed, half for my desk.

This is my desk, the speakers are 10cm/4 inches away from the wall. All the other gears are under my desk. My ears are about 80cm/26 inch from the speaker.
If I buy a subwoofer, I have to put them under the desk, direct on the floor. Does that still make notes sound better?
I'll keep the PM6006, but have to find out how to connect the subwoofer on it.

Thanks @Jim Taylor, your reply is very easy to read.
View attachment 267194

Then it will be better for you to get near field (close to speakers listening) studio monitors and active one's (with integrated power amplifier in them).

Room is small but not too small for regular speakers but without work space and more free space behind them (60 cm from back and 50 cm from side walls) with you sitting at 3 m from back to speakers wall. But if you wish to keep it as it is you go with near field speakers.

 

[luft262]

You are right, my room is 2.5 X 4 meter,(8.2 x 13 feet), half for the bed, half for my desk.

This is my desk, the speakers are 10cm/4 inches away from the wall. All the other gears are under my desk. My ears are about 80cm/26 inch from the speaker.
If I buy a subwoofer, I have to put them under the desk, direct on the floor. Does that still make notes sound better?
I'll keep the PM6006, but have to find out how to connect the subwoofer on it.

Thanks @Jim Taylor, your reply is very easy to read.
View attachment 267194

That's a tight setup. I'd just get a sub and a Umik 1. If you get svs subs you'll have manual EQ built in. If not get a miniDSP and EQ your subs. If your speakers are measuring bad just replace them with some Genelec active speakers with good spinoramas. Later you can replace your DAC with something transparent if you really want to like Topping, SMSL, or JDS labs.

 

[camerarooster]

Hello, welcome to ASR! Maybe you can recognize this solo bass recording: https://voca.ro/17qzZIHfqyoG

https://www.l7audiolab.com is a good chinese-language site similar to ASR reviews for empirical reviews/measurements, maybe this will be much easier to translate to traditional Chinese for you. That site is mostly covering electronics, not really educational material. Perhaps you can ask around there if anyone has more written material in Chinese if it is easier for you to understand.

You will have to clarify some things about your budget. Do you a) want to spend $1000-1500 on the speakers now and have the eventual goal of spending $4000-5000 total on the other components like amplifier, dac, etc. over time or in the future? Or b) are you prepared to spend up to $1500 on a speaker and $2500-3500 on the other components immediately? Since you say that 95% of your listening is for speakers, the advice you will get from people here is that a majority of the budget for any system should be on the loudspeakers, so most people will suggest you spend 75%, if not as much as 90%+ on speakers alone. I would also say don't completely dismiss active speakers, many audiophiles, especially Chinese and Japanese do not seem to like them, but they are simply the best options for most systems these days.

I agree with what the others are saying. Your Marantz PM6006 may not be the absolute best measuring compared to some of the other cutting edge devices measured here, but it is at the point where there is very little if not any noticeable difference between the two because performance is already high and acceptable in most of these devices. Good loudspeakers combined with your Marantz (as long as it can power them adequately) will always sound better than a lower quality speaker combined with high quality electronics that may not be contributing much if anything to the signal you hear. By opting to keep your Marantz (at least for now), that is potentially $600-2000+ of budget saved you can put into better performing speakers for an overall better system.

Definitely buy an $80 umik-1 for taking measurements and analyzing your system in your room regardless of what speakers you buy.

I would say also look at some of your options of speakers that have been measured here: https://www.spinorama.org/scores.html If you do not understand how to read the charts the "help" section on the website is a good start. There are a couple good options for passive speakers under or near $1500, but if you put more of your budget on speakers you have a wealth of other options like Neumann, Genelec, Buchardt, Sointuva etc. If you want to output low bass notes as well (especially if you will double using the system for home theatre) you will perhaps also want to consider a subwoofer in your budget too. We can help you better if you give us more information about you room and needs.

Hi Jae, You played the bass solo?

I never know there's Chinese website like ASR! Reading English is okay for me, it just takes five times slower than I read Chinese I plan to put $4000~$6000 budget maybe in 10 years. I'll upgrade the gears one by one, this time for a speaker under $2500. I filtered the reviews and found some speakers in my budget now, like Aria 906, Monitor Audio Silver 100, KEF LS50, JBL HDI-1600. KER R3 looks really good but over the budget now.
For other details ,I'll make a reply later.

 

[ZolaIII]

You can go even with Wharfedale WH-D10 subwoofer and probably even only one but you do need to change the speakers.

Your current speakers and mentioned sub measurements.
Don't listen to advices on SVS Pro sub's for their (three) embedded PEQ abilities.

 

[Zek]

I'll keep the PM6006, but have to find out how to connect the subwoofer on it.

Try to find a subwoofer with a high-level input and connect it to the Marantz speaker output B.

 

[camerarooster]

A million thank to everyone who replied, really surprised and glad to see so many friendly, useful advice!

For more details, my room is 2.5 X 4 meters,(8.2 x 13 feet), half for my desk. The speakers are 10cm/4 inches from the back wall and 15mins from side wall/bookshelf.
The main source is my pc for all kinds of music from Rock, Jazz, to classical. Working with good music makes job kinda easier and soooooo great to enjoy a book with music in the days off.
The reason I wanna buy Topping amp is because all the audio store and threads I read before told me it takes preamp, poweramp, independent DAC, expensive cable to make a setup, and more gears make the sound better. I'll keep the PM6006 amp, and spent $1000~$1500 for speaker upgrade this travel to Japan. Buy a Umik 1 for EQ and room retreatment. Leave the subwoofer and HD 6XX for next upgrade. The last piece is MiniDSP. Guess that's all I want in the next five to ten years.

There're some more questions.
Mini DSP helps for EQ, but is it redundant, have some function I already have in my amp? Is it connected like this: PC-->Mini DSP-->PM6006-->speaker?
Also read some thread about crossover. The Mini DSP separate the HF and LF signal, then sent them independent to driver and tweeter. Is my comprehension correct?
@ZolaIII mentioned near field speakers, is that some kind of speaker or any speaker is okay but requires EQ for close listening?

Something interesting I can share with you. While I researched affordable high performance DAC, I found SMSL. It's a company from China, and the SMSL are abbreviation for "two single trees, three pairs of trees" in Chinese. That's literally eight trees in total. (They said they wanna make more products like growing trees into forest)

Thanks again for all the advice. The knowledge I obtained here in the past three weeks are more then I learned from unsystematic information. Your help make this forum really lovely.

 

[ZolaIII]

Near field speakers are meant for close to listener (50 to 150 cm) reproduction and all studio monitors are like that because studio monitoring boxes are usually small. They have more narrow dispersion pattern. Regular speakers (including one's you currently have) have wider dispersion pattern and are intended for 2~3 m (or little more) distance listening.
With active near field studio monitors you don't have much use of your power amplifier.
MiniDSP Flex is a ADC for analog two channels input, DSP (for PEQ filters (up to 10 per bank), room correction trough convolution or Dirac Live (for which you pay additional 200$ for licence)) and four chanel DAC for analog output. Yes you are right regarding crossovers but in this case you would use third and or forth chanel of MiniDSP Flex to cross the main speakers with subwoofer or two of them. Meaning with it you don't need other DAC either you use power amplifier or active speakers.
You probably can buy all what you need for the budget (as I don't know neither prices nor availability in Taiwan or Japan) and sell your power amplifier and current speakers.
Try to find and listen to Kali LP 6 V2 active monitors and see how you like them and if they are quiet enough regarding self noise they produce while working and not playing anything for you. They should be relatively cheap about 200$ per one (400$ for pair) if you find to be satisfied regarding how they sound to you.
UMIK 1 is about 100$ or a little less.
MiniDSP Flex should be about 500$ but it knows to be and more expensive so try to find it for that price if possible. You can usually get both Flex and UMIK from same source together.
Warfadale WH-D10 can usually be found for 250$.
If you go this way you will probably have even some money left which you can use for basic room acoustic treatment (back wall and corners with couple of absorber panels made of rock wool and corner insert ones) later on.