Fiio E10k outperforming DX3 with Sennheiser 6xx. How could it be?

[sychan]

It shouldn't be surprising that individual measurements don't tell the whole story for real world performance. I have done various kinds of computer benchmarking over the years, and I assure you that unless what you are measuring is a good simulation of how you intend to actually use something, the numbers can be very deceiving.

As a specific example, measurements of how a computer performs when reading a single very large file may tell you almost nothing about how it performs when reading a large number of teeny-tiny files that add up to the same size, or how it performs when writing files instead of reading files.

In the realm of something physical like bicycles, there has been some controversy the last few years because laboratory procedures for testing the efficiency of bicycle tires favor skinny, highly inflated tires for measuring rolling efficiency - the ultimate efficiency would be from a hard steel hoop because it loses no energy to rolling reistance. Yet such a tire would prove to be horribly inefficient for a real human riding on a surface that isn't perfectly smooth, because a rigid tire tends to cause hysteresis in the whole bike/rider system - rattling the rider around, and wasting energy by transforming forward momentum into vertical displacement every time there is a bump or dip on the road. A softer, wider tire absorbs the irregularities in the road surface as deformation of the tire and actually conserves forward momentum much better - even if it performs poorly on a laboratory test rig.

Amir's tests are measurements of specific things, and they are valuable in sussing out shabby engineering, but they measure simple values: the music we listen to doesn't consist entirely of 1kz tones and sine waves.

 

[solderdude]

Amir's tests are measurements of specific things, and they are valuable in sussing out shabby engineering, but they measure simple values: the music we listen to doesn't consist entirely of 1kz tones and sine waves.

What would you call the 32 multitone test ?
Music just is a bunch of sinewaves with a certain attack, sustain and or decay.
Recorded music is merely a summation of signals and ultimately (for stereo) is just 2 voltages changing over time.
We can measure time extremely accurate. We can measure voltages accurately.
It can be recorded and analyzed in several ways.
One can even null signals (basically all amplifiers with feedback are accurate nulling devices) to see if there are differences between input and output and quantify those and make them audible using noise or actual music.

In the electrical field everything can be measured. Not so with speakers/headphones/rooms. There we can measure but correlation isn't as good.

 

[Berwhale]

So essentially I'd use the E10k as a Dac only? I was considering that option, or in alternative, a more powerful dac/amp, from Fiio, like the Q1.

I bought a Fiio K3 (successor to the 10K), but the K3 was not powerful enough to drive my AKG K712Pro headphones, so I bought a JDS Labs Atom amp and that fixed the problem. If you're smart, you can stop there or you can keep spending money like I did on a 'better' DAC (Topping D50s). Probably the best way to avoid spending money on further upgrades would be to stop reading these forums, but where's the fun in that?

 

[ricmuz_]

How do you know... did you connect it to an amp ?

No, the E10K is an amp too. What was asking you was, since you were saying that the DAC should not influence sound so much, what it is then that makes these two devices sound so different to me.

 

[ricmuz_]

I bought a Fiio K3 (successor to the 10K), but the K3 was not powerful enough to drive my AKG K712Pro headphones, so I bought a JDS Labs Atom amp and that fixed the problem. If you're smart, you can stop there or you can keep spending money like I did on a 'better' DAC (Topping D50s). Probably the best way to avoid spending money on further upgrades would be to stop reading these forums, but where's the fun in that?

Yes, I've heard great things about the atom and I am definitely considering the purchase. But I would not be able to return it so I'm very hesitant now, especially given how much the DX3 has disappointed me.

Yeah, from my limited experience I can say that something like the E10K is totally fine as a DAC, so I might even keep it for that purpose. You're right by the way, the more one keeps reading forums the more he's likely to spend way too much money on a dac/amp, though there's some weird, even masochistic fun in doing that lol

So from your answer I get that if I keep the same DAC and change the amp the sound should remain the same but just with more power to give to the headphones? I really want to buy the Atom but I'm scared that it'd make my headphones sound dull like with the DX3. The E10K sounds very good to me - it's a shame it doesn't have enough power to drive the 6xx.

 

[sychan]

What would you call the 32 multitone test ?
Music just is a bunch of sinewaves with a certain attack, sustain and or decay.
Recorded music is merely a summation of signals and ultimately (for stereo) is just 2 voltages changing over time.
We can measure time extremely accurate. We can measure voltages accurately.
It can be recorded and analyzed in several ways.
One can even null signals (basically all amplifiers with feedback are accurate nulling devices) to see if there are differences between input and output and quantify those and make them audible using noise or actual music.

In the electrical field everything can be measured. Not so with speakers/headphones/rooms. There we can measure but correlation isn't as good.

I think you are expanding the scope of what I said and then critiquing the inflated version. As I pointed out, you can generate tests that are specific for different use cases, and then you can measure the results with that use. I'm not saying that music isn't made of the summation of waveforms, and that these waveforms aren't measurable - I'm saying that Amir only tests for a small set of possible inputs, and that these tests don't tell you everything. For example, an amp may test very well if you feed it various tones of even amplitude, but that doesn't necessarily tell you how it will perform if you feed it a signal with sudden spikes and dips. You can definitely test for that, and measure for it - but in the particular measurements that Amir does, he doesn't (and can't) measure everything.

 

[Berwhale]

So from your answer I get that if I keep the same DAC and change the amp the sound should remain the same but just with more power to give to the headphones? I really want to buy the Atom but I'm scared that it'd make my headphones sound dull like with the DX3. The E10K sounds very good to me - it's a shame it doesn't have enough power to drive the 6xx.

My understanding is that the 'sound' of your headphones will change when you increase the power available to drive them, this is a consequence of the way our hearing works. It may be that you like the sound of the HD6xx at low volume when the E10K is struggling to drive them and you will be disappointed by any amplification that increases the volume. This would be a bit strange because typically it would be the other way around. This is also why level matching is so important for truly blind testing, relatively small differences in the volume of a sound can have a large impact on the perceived sound quality.

At the end of the day, all I can say is that, personally, I perceived the sound to be considerably improved by the addition of the Atom to my K3 and I'm happy with my purchase (and it cost quite a bit extra to get it to the UK).

 

[Fluffy]

The E10K sounds very good to me - it's a shame it doesn't have enough power to drive the 6xx.

I gotta say, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. If you've only listened to a couple of amps, and I'm guessing not that many more headphones, how can you even determine what really sounds good to you?

It sounds to me like you happened to like the first thing that crossed your way, and from there you are conjecturing that this must be the best thing for you. You need to let go the notion that what you liked so far represents some ideal to aspire to. This is probably a biased feeling, and you can get rid of it by trying different things until you come across something else you like, that is totally different from the first thing (this also apply to headphones). Audiophiles can get very anchored to some type of sound claiming it sounds the best, because it was the first thing that sounded good to them. That's why there is so much obsession about vintage and analog gear, especially from the older type of audiophiles. 'If it sounded good to me when I was first getting into music, it must be how things should sound'…

That's why objective measurements can reveal falsehoods. Most of the time it reveals that things that are claimed to sound completely different actually sound the same, and the difference comes from expectation bias. It could also reveal that something's "good sound" is actually some type of inaccuracy in reproduction that tricks the brain into feeling that because it sounds unique it must than sound good.

An amp that imparts its own character on the music doesn't inherently "sound good", it just sounds good to whomever associates that specific character with good sound. Some people like the low SNR, high artifacts sound of vinyl because its nostalgic to them or other psychological reasons, not because it by itself more true to the recording.

So then, what I think you should do is take a good hard look and understand what is it really that you like about the sound of that Fiio device. It's not the "soundstage" or "performance" or "fullness", these are all meaningless terms that can't be translated to technical specifications. You can find this out by playing around with an EQ and see what are the effects of lowering and raising different frequency bands. I bet you will soon find out that you can associate certain frequencies with what appears to be "fullness" or "detail". And once you realize that, you'll see that what you really need is a transparent dac\amp, and the real controlling factor in how the music sounds is the headphones, that can also be tailored to your preference (to a degree) by using EQ.

 

[ricmuz_]

My understanding is that the 'sound' of your headphones will change when you increase the power available to drive them, this is a consequence of the way our hearing works. It may be that you like the sound of the HD6xx at low volume when the E10K is struggling to drive them and you will be disappointed by any amplification that increases the volume. This would be a bit strange because typically it would be the other way around. This is also why level matching is so important for truly blind testing, relatively small differences in the volume of a sound can have a large impact on the perceived sound quality.

At the end of the day, all I can say is that, personally, I perceived the sound to be considerably improved by the addition of the Atom to my K3 and I'm happy with my purchase (and it cost quite a bit extra to get it to the UK).

I thought it worked like that as well, and this is why I expected the DX3 Pro to be better than the E10K on every front.
But I have tried multiple times, also considering your hypothesis (that maybe I like the E10K because it's at a lower volume, and maybe I don't quite like the 6xx if they're fully powered), for example setting the DX3 on low gain, and also trying to match the volume between the two.

But they just sound irrimediably different to me, especially in the Bass category, or maybe even exclusively on the bass category. At whatever volume I try them (of course if the volume is too low in general the differences are less noticeable). Of course, I'm not an idiot so during these tests I turned the bass boost of the E10k off. With the DX3 pro, the bass just doesn't seem to reach the level of fullness that it displays with the E10K. Even at high gain, max volume. Which doesn't make any sense to me, because with that much more power given to the headphones it just doesn't make sense that the bass should still be less pronounced and weak.

 

[ricmuz_]

I gotta say, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. If you've only listened to a couple of amps, and I'm guessing not that many more headphones, how can you even determine what really sounds good to you?

It sounds to me like you happened to like the first thing that crossed your way, and from there you are conjecturing that this must be the best thing for you. You need to let go the notion that what you liked so far represents some ideal to aspire to. This is probably a biased feeling, and you can get rid of it by trying different things until you come across something else you like, that is totally different from the first thing (this also apply to headphones). Audiophiles can get very anchored to some type of sound claiming it sounds the best, because it was the first thing that sounded good to them. That's why there is so much obsession about vintage and analog gear, especially from the older type of audiophiles. 'If it sounded good to me when I was first getting into music, it must be how things should sound'…

That's why objective measurements can reveal falsehoods. Most of the time it reveals that things that are claimed to sound completely different actually sound the same, and the difference comes from expectation bias. It could also reveal that something's "good sound" is actually some type of inaccuracy in reproduction that tricks the brain into feeling that because it sounds unique it must than sound good.

An amp that imparts its own character on the music doesn't inherently "sound good", it just sounds good to whomever associates that specific character with good sound. Some people like the low SNR, high artifacts sound of vinyl because its nostalgic to them or other psychological reasons, not because it by itself more true to the recording.

So then, what I think you should do is take a good hard look and understand what is it really that you like about the sound of that Fiio device. It's not the "soundstage" or "performance" or "fullness", these are all meaningless terms that can't be translated to technical specifications. You can find this out by playing around with an EQ and see what are the effects of lowering and raising different frequency bands. I bet you will soon find out that you can associate certain frequencies with what appears to be "fullness" or "detail". And once you realize that, you'll see that what you really need is a transparent dac\amp, and the real controlling factor in how the music sounds is the headphones, that can also be tailored to your preference (to a degree) by using EQ.

"How can you determine what sounds good to you?"

Well, by plugging in my headphones and listening to a song lol
And this is what I've done so far. I find no purpose in playing with the EQ because I want my amp to sound like I want it to without any customization - if I want to customize, I will do that at a second point.

I know my taste in sound pretty thoroughly already. And this is why I didn't spend more than a couple of hours to decide that the DX3 Pro is not for me. As I said, I don't take these things easily. I have spend roughly a month trying 4 different wireless headphones before picking one.

The rest of your message just doesn't make that much sense to me, I'm sorry to say. It isn't that the E10K is "an ideal to which I am trying to aspire" - I have said many times that I was actually going to replace it because I didn't think much of it. But comparing these two amps, that one sounded much much better for me. Not because of "ideal". Not because of "bias". Not because of some way in which I'm fooling myself. But simply because I know my taste very well and the E10K just sounds better to me. It doesn't matter how many amps and headphones I've tried in the past, that's just my favourite one between these two, there isn't anything more to it.

 

[Berwhale]

I thought it worked like that as well, and this is why I expected the DX3 Pro to be better than the E10K on every front.
But I have tried multiple times, also considering your hypothesis (that maybe I like the E10K because it's at a lower volume, and maybe I don't quite like the 6xx if they're fully powered), for example setting the DX3 on low gain, and also trying to match the volume between the two.

But they just sound irrimediably different to me, especially in the Bass category, or maybe even exclusively on the bass category. At whatever volume I try them (of course if the volume is too low in general the differences are less noticeable). Of course, I'm not an idiot so during these tests I turned the bass boost of the E10k off. With the DX3 pro, the bass just doesn't seem to reach the level of fullness that it displays with the E10K. Even at high gain, max volume. Which doesn't make any sense to me, because with that much more power given to the headphones it just doesn't make sense that the bass should still be less pronounced and weak.

I'm beginning to wonder if the DX3 Pro has a fault. I recently bought a pair of Sennheiser Momentum 2.0 closed back headphones (my wife suggested that I needed something less audible than my AKGs when she was sitting next to me!). I plugged the Senn's into my Atom and they sounded terrible, then I realised that they had a 4 pole 3.5mm plug (they're the iPhone version with an in-line mic) and that the 6.35mm adaptor I was using was bridging a couple of the poles (and maybe subtracting L from R?). I plugged the Senn's into the K3 and they sounded fine, so ordered an aftermarket cable without a mic and they now work great with the Atom.

 

[ricmuz_]

Well, of course there's a chance that the model is faulty. But it's very strange though, cause I could not really notice any "objective" problems, just me not liking the sound at all. But yeah, it may still be that there's a problem in the device, and that is why I'm not liking the sound.

I might ask a replacement from Amazon, but I'm kind of hesitant because I think it'll do no difference. Plus, I've done a couple of returns lately (faulty Bose QC35ii) and I don't want them to think I'm a scammer lol. But besides that, it's very unlikely that the device is faulty imho. Especially since I haven't read anyone else on the internet reporting on a similar problem. The cables that I've used are all the official ones from Topping + the original jack of the 6xx.

 

[Fluffy]

Look man, I'm just trying to help, and my way of helping is trying to free you from cognitive biases you might have. it sounds to me like you are basing your preference on sound upon too few examples.

If you say that you tried many different amplifiers and the Fiio stood out, doesn't even matter why, then I would say you should look into what makes that specific one sound good to you. But you said you only compared between these two, and from that you wish you had something like the Fiio but with more power. Did you consider that the difference is imagined? Do you think you can determine which is which in a blind test? All I'm saying is that maybe the Fiio sounds better because you expect it to sound better.

And also, by trying other amps you will have more points of reference. Right now it's easy to categories one amp as "full" and another one as "anemic", because you only have the two. If you add more amps to your listening experience it will get harder to classify them because it's not a binary thing anymore. And if you don't remember how you 'should' classify the amp you are about to try, it gets harder to create an expectation bias, and you could find out that they actually sound quite the same. And of course by doing a blind listening you eliminate most of the biases you could have.

The main purpose of this entire site, as far as I see it, is to demonstrate that our mind is not a perfect instrument and it can be manipulated quite easily, even by its own actions. If you want to objectively assess a piece of gear, you need to recognize your own biases and eliminate them.

The way to do that is by looking at how a device measures and see if it correlates to your subjective experience of it. I really wish I had measurements of that Fiio E10k to see if there is anything there that can explain what you believe you heard. But since those two should be pretty well made products, and by looking at the specs I don't notice anything out of the ordinary, the most likely explanation is either expectation bias, or that one of the devices is malfunctioning in some way.

 

[solderdude]

I think you are expanding the scope of what I said and then critiquing the inflated version. As I pointed out, you can generate tests that are specific for different use cases, and then you can measure the results with that use. I'm not saying that music isn't made of the summation of waveforms, and that these waveforms aren't measurable - I'm saying that Amir only tests for a small set of possible inputs, and that these tests don't tell you everything. For example, an amp may test very well if you feed it various tones of even amplitude, but that doesn't necessarily tell you how it will perform if you feed it a signal with sudden spikes and dips. You can definitely test for that, and measure for it - but in the particular measurements that Amir does, he doesn't (and can't) measure everything.

Amps have no problems with spikes and small dips. It is handled in the same way as a larger sinewave. In other words the amplifier simply amplifies that signal and does not change it. Voltage in amplified Voltage out. Regardless of amplitude (we are talking about headphone amps here).

What do you expect to be different when feeding it short pulses for instance ?

 

[solderdude]

No, the E10K is an amp too. What was asking you was, since you were saying that the DAC should not influence sound so much, what it is then that makes these two devices sound so different to me.

I would say output power, perhaps some less technical reasons.
One would have to do level matched and blind tests if one is to really find out if they really are different.
In the end it really doesn't matter. If you like how it sounds just use it. If you want more power use the E10k as a DAC and buy a good (transparent) amplifier with >100mW power in 300 Ohm.
When this doesn't give the wanted result try the splitter and extra headphone 'trick'.

 

[ricmuz_]

I would say output power, perhaps some less technical reasons.
One would have to do level matched and blind tests if one is to really find out if they really are different.
In the end it really doesn't matter. If you like how it sounds just use it. If you want more power use the E10k as a DAC and buy a good (transparent) amplifier with >100mW power in 300 Ohm.
When this doesn't give the wanted result try the splitter and extra headphone 'trick'.

I considered a couple of options this afternoon and I decided I'm going to try the Fiio A5 amplifier + the E10K as a DAC.
E10k has 200mw output at 32Ohm, the A5 is at 800. Given that the volume on the E10K is not too low already, the A5 should be enough.
Will report here with the result.

 

[solderdude]

Fiio A5 = 150mW at 300 Ohm which is enough to drive 300 Ohm headphones.

 

[Berwhale]

I assume that you've stuck with Fiio in anticipation of maintaining the Fiio 'sound' that you already like?

You could also try some EQ with the DX3 Pro. I use MusicBee on Windows with the Morhpit VST plug-in. If you setup something similar, you could try simulating the Harman AE/OE target (or anything else on the list)...

 

[ricmuz_]

I assume that you've stuck with Fiio in anticipation of maintaining the Fiio 'sound' that you already like?

You could also try some EQ with the DX3 Pro. I use MusicBee on Windows with the Morhpit VST plug-in. If you setup something similar, you could try simulating the Harman AE/OE target (or anything else on the list)...

View attachment 35247

Yes I've tried playing with the EQ a little bit, reducing the treble a little and emphasizing the bass. It is definitely better, and the resulting sound is much, much more clear than the E10K. But still, the bass just sounds "empty" to me. And if I emphasize it via the EQ, it sounds odd and artificial.
I haven't returned my DX3 yet though - when the A5 arrives, I will play with both of them a bit and see which one is more appropriate. I bought both of them from amazon anyway, so I can return any of the two for free within 30 days.

By the way, could you kindly tell me where you got that plugin?

 

[solderdude]

When going about it in the subjective way then this is the way to go indeed.
Compare and keep what you like.