Fiio E10k outperforming DX3 with Sennheiser 6xx. How could it be?

[ricmuz_]

[I am not trying to say here that one of the two devices is "objectively" better than the other one. Please read the entire thread in order to get what I'm trying to say]

When I bought my DX3 Pro, I decided to not return my Fiio E10k to amazon immediately, so that I could compare the two against each other.
I predicted that the comparison would've blown my mind.

And that it did. But in the totally opposite way that I was expecting!

I installed the DX3 latest drivers. I set the gain to high. Then I just plugged it in my PC. I don't think I did anything wrong, really.
But I tried them both for a bit and... It is super-super obvious to me that the Fiio E10k sounds better to my ears. With it, my 6xx sound way more full and present; with the DX3, even if I set the volume at max (to headache-causing levels) the sound is super super flat and anemic. Furthermore, the soundstage seems much better with the Fiio E10k, while with the DX3, when I increase the volume, the soundstage doesn't expand much, it is as if just the treble is increasing, which gets incredibly annoying to my ears; again, headache-causing kind of annoying.

I didn't expect this at all.

So what should I do now? This is my first amp, and from my research I understood that amps could not sound different - they would only differ in how much power they'd give to the headphones. But even if I set the DX3 to low gain, it is super super obvious to me that the sound is just different. How could this be?

What should I buy then? Schiit products are too expensive in my region - the atom is doable at around €150, but I'm scared of buying things out of amazon because I'd not be able to return them.

Should I try another Fiio product, like the A5 or Q1?

I'm still very much confused while I write this post. I did not expect such a difference to occur at all. I was sure that the DX3 would do everything the Fiio E10k did, and even better. But after just 15 minutes of tests the sound difference is way too obvious for me (and I do not take these things lightly - I can spend 1 and a half months trying to decide between two headphones, for example).

Ending with an off-topic, I think that my headphone choice was also wrong. I bought the 6xx instead of the 58x. But now I think the second model might suit my taste a little better. I think I will buy the 58x too and sell my 6xx. It shouldn't be too hard to sell them on reddit or somewhere else.

 

[Fluffy]

"Sound better to my ears" doesn't equal outperforming. Measurements and specs (and prices…) are one thing, and the subjective experience is another thing. It could be that you got used to some suboptimal aspect of the Fiio and when listening to a device that is closer to transparent, that thing is suddenly missing. It could be a slight high frequency roll off the makes the sound less harsh, or maybe something to do with different output impedance that interact differently with the headphones, and could cause a slight bass boost. I haven't seen detailed measurements of the Fiio E10K so it's hard to say what could cause this. Some people claim that higher distortion could sound "richer".

Amps can definitely sound different, but you need to understand what can be practically different between them. Amps don't produce 'soundstage' or 'fullness', they just amplify voltage. The difference is probably due to differences in the frequency spectrum that your mind interprets as soundstage or presence. And differences in frequency response can be caused by many things.

I think your options are as follows – you could except that the DX3 is more transparent and true to the original recording, and get used to the different sound. You may want to consider applying some EQ to tame harsh sounding treble or boost missing low end. Though these things are probably either an issue with the headphones or the recording, not the amp or dac, that have very low contribution to the overall sound by themselves.

Or, you can keep using the same device you've been using if it makes music more enjoyable, thus letting go of so called "purity" of sound. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[ricmuz_]

When I say "outperforming", of course I mean "in my estimation" - what else could I possibly mean? No audio equipment can outperform anything if there are no human ears around to listen to it. So that's a trivial semantic issue in my opinion.

By the way, the E10k is not a device that I was somehow accustomed to in any way. I must've used it 5 times max, maybe even less. I just haven't had the chance to use these headphones often lately.
I was unsatisfied with it because it seemed to me like certain frequencies weren't finding their true potential. As I increased the volume though, the sound was getting fuller and fuller to me, and so I thought it was just a matter of power - so I could just solve it by getting a more powerful amp.

But what I just heard disappointed me beyond belief. My ears are still hurting from the harshness of that treble.

There is no point in me trying to prove to you that these two amplifiers sound like day and night to me, because I can't lend you my ears - nor to you nor to anyone else.

So my real question in the thread was: how could it be that these things sound so different?
What I get from your reply is that these two amplifiers are producing different frequency spectrums, and you're saying that it is this difference that I'm interpreting as "fuller", "richer" and so on. That's totally fair to me - as I said these things can only be subjective.
But what I'm wondering is: how could there be such a big difference? I thought amplifiers varied very little in frequency response.

I can't keep the Fiio E10k because even if I like the sound, the maximum volume is too low. But now I'm super confused though, because I don't know what I should look for in my next amp. I thought it was all about the power output but now it turns out I was spectacularly wrong.

 

[Fluffy]

If you just got the DX3 pro and you used the Fiio just five times, then what did you have before that? what are you comparing the sound of these two devices to?

 

[Xulonn]

When I say "outperforming", of course I mean "in my estimation" - what else could I possibly mean?

So you are saying that "outperforming" may have a specific meaning for you, but is meaningless to anyone else? When you post a question, you need to establish a "common language." How could anyone have a useful and rational answer if they cannot possibly know what you are are talking about?

My simplest guess about your problem is that unless one of the components is defective or not working properly, the problem is likely related to component compatibility issues. But I'm not technical enough to guide you through troubleshooting like many of the real experts here.

No offense meant - just trying to explain internet forum communication basics.

 

[gypsygib]

"Sound better to my ears" doesn't equal outperforming. Measurements and specs (and prices…) are one thing, and the subjective experience is another thing. It could be that you got used to some suboptimal aspect of the Fiio and when listening to a device that is closer to transparent, that thing is suddenly missing. It could be a slight high frequency roll off the makes the sound less harsh, or maybe something to do with different output impedance that interact differently with the headphones, and could cause a slight bass boost. I haven't seen detailed measurements of the Fiio E10K so it's hard to say what could cause this. Some people claim that higher distortion could sound "richer".

Amps can definitely sound different, but you need to understand what can be practically different between them. Amps don't produce 'soundstage' or 'fullness', they just amplify voltage. The difference is probably due to differences in the frequency spectrum that your mind interprets as soundstage or presence. And differences in frequency response can be caused by many things.

I think your options are as follows – you could except that the DX3 is more transparent and true to the original recording, and get used to the different sound. You may want to consider applying some EQ to tame harsh sounding treble or boost missing low end. Though these things are probably either an issue with the headphones or the recording, not the amp or dac, that have very low contribution to the overall sound by themselves.

Or, you can keep using the same device you've been using if it makes music more enjoyable, thus letting go of so called "purity" of sound. There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't even like my E10K but I'll admit that is has more base and way more soundstage than the DX3 Pro V1. Far less clean however, but you definitely can't remove subjectivity from the evaluation of an audio device. It's probably the most important aspect, at least to the individual.

 

[ricmuz_]

So you are saying that "outperforming" may have a specific meaning for you, but is meaningless to anyone else? When you post a question, you need to establish a "common language." How could anyone have a useful and rational answer if they cannot possibly know what you are are talking about?

My simplest guess about your problem is that unless one of the components is defective or not working properly, the problem is likely related to component compatibility issues. But I'm not technical enough to guide you through troubleshooting like many of the real experts here.

No offense meant - just trying to explain internet forum communication basics.

I'm just saying that the "outperforming" part is just completely trivial here. I'm not trying to enstablish which amp/dac is "better" and which one is "worse". I'm not saying that "outperforming is meaningless to anyone else", I don't even know what you mean by that. I'm just saying that that's not the key point of my message and you and the other guy are misunderstanding my point and the questions that I'm asking. But anyway, I've explained myself multiple times already, I don't think it's worth to continue on this line.

 

[ricmuz_]

If you just got the DX3 pro and you used the Fiio just five times, then what did you have before that? what are you comparing the sound of these two devices to?

Nothing, really. These are the only ones I've used so far. But I will stress this once more again (and I'll remove that stupid word from the title if I manage to, since everyone seems a little too keen on competitive comparisons here): I'm not trying to say that one of these devices is better than the others. I'm just saying that I don't quite understand how the E10K can sound so different (or "better", in my own opinion, not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here, I promise), because from my limited knowledge of amps I understood that they varied only slightly in the sound that they produce.

 

[ricmuz_]

I don't even like my E10K but I'll admit that is has more base and way more soundstage than the DX3 Pro V1. Far less clean however, but you definitely can't remove subjectivity from the evaluation of an audio device. It's probably the most important aspect, at least to the individual.

The DX3 Pro did sound a tad bit more clear to me, but overall so, so much worse than the E10K.
Ideally I want something like the E10K, but with more power (which is the variable that brings more clarity with the DX3, I think): do you have any suggestions on that?

 

[Fluffy]

I don't know what other headphones you have, but headphones differ from one another far more than amplifiers, by orders of magnitude. When someone says the amplifiers sound the same, I think it's in compresence to headphones. By themselves you can find tiny variations between amps, but those usually get completely drowned out by differences between headphones. That's why it's better to find a transparent amp\dac, and control the subjective sound through the choice of headphones.

Though, I suspect the difference between the 6XX and the 58X will be relatively subtle, because those headphones are pretty close to each other in build and tuning.

 

[solderdude]

The DX3 Pro did sound a tad bit more clear to me, but overall so, so much worse than the E10K.
Ideally I want something like the E10K, but with more power (which is the variable that brings more clarity with the DX3, I think): do you have any suggestions on that?

There is one way you can achieve that but is expensive and requires a cable splitter.

FiiO E-10K -> splitter
splitter splits to A: headphone you like and B to the input of any powerful low distortion (pick a tested one) headphone amp.
The headphone amp is connected to a second headphone (preferably a similar model) which is the one you listen to.

This way the actual 'sound signature' you listen to that is 'created' by the combination of E10K + headphone is accurately amplified in the transparent and more powerful headphone amp.

problem solved

 

[raif71]

It seems to me that you might prefer the Fiio sound (whatever that means). I'm using k5 pro and q5s and I love both. Again this is just me (could be you too). I'm using Senns 660s btw

ps: I've demoed Fiio q1mkII and I like the sound too.

 

[ricmuz_]

In fact I am having second thoughts on buying the 58x as well, since the frequency charts show very similar results.

There is one way you can achieve that but is expensive and requires a cable splitter.

FiiO E-10K -> splitter
splitter splits to A: headphone you like and B to the input of any powerful low distortion (pick a tested one) headphone amp.
The headphone amp is connected to a second headphone (preferably a similar model) which is the one you listen to.

This way the actual 'sound signature' you listen to that is 'created' by the combination of E10K + headphone is accurately amplified in the transparent and more powerful headphone amp.

problem solved

So essentially I'd use the E10k as a Dac only? I was considering that option, or in alternative, a more powerful dac/amp, from Fiio, like the Q1.

But so what I'm getting here is that it is the DAC chip that influences the sound rather than the amp? Is that right?


By the way, forgive me if this might sound rather foolish, I am not an expert in electronics:
I noticed now that I was using the DX3 Pro in a power strip with another 3 devices plugged in (a large speaker, a mixer and a laptop charger). Could this alter the performance of the DX3 Pro? All the devices are turned off by the way.

 

[solderdude]

I really have no idea what you are hearing.
In general it is not the DAC chip that matters. Its the implementation of it.
With amplification there can be influence between drivers and the amplifier. There are many variables here.
Another variable is how one tests the sound quality.

 

[Fluffy]

So essentially I'd use the E10k as a Dac only?

I'm pretty sure @solderdude was joking.

 

[solderdude]

The E10k is too low powered to drive the HD6xx series (as well as the HD58X which is equally sensitive) to 'impressive' sound levels.
Just use it as a DAC and choose an amp that can deliver >100mW into 300 Ohm.

What you are hearing is not differences in the DAC chip.

The HD58x and HD650 have a somewhat similar tonal balance but do not sound the same. Differences are too big to sound the same.

 

[flipflop]

@ricmuz_, set the bass switch to 'off'.

 

[ricmuz_]

The E10k is too low powered to drive the HD6xx series (as well as the HD58X which is equally sensitive) to 'impressive' sound levels.
Just use it as a DAC and choose an amp that can deliver >100mW into 300 Ohm.

What you are hearing is not differences in the DAC chip.

The HD58x and HD650 have a somewhat similar tonal balance but do not sound the same. Differences are too big to sound the same.

If it wasn't the DAC part making the sound so different, what was? The Amp part?

@ricmuz_, set the bass switch to 'off'.
View attachment 35186

It was already like that.

 

[flipflop]

It was already like that.

Try turning it on then. Do you notice a difference?

 

[solderdude]

If it wasn't the DAC part making the sound so different, what was? The Amp part?

How do you know... did you connect it to an amp ?