ESS IMD hump with AKM DAC? (specifically AK4499EXEQ in Topping E70 Velvet)

[JIW]

TOPPING E70 VELVET (AKM) is better than the TOPPING E70 (ESS) according to my personal 'blind' listening experience using a friend who switched these two DACs without me knowing which one was playing (the maximum output levels had been set to the same voltage).

I know that listening tests are purely subjective and I know very well the (objective) measurements made on these two DACS but the fact remains that there are sound differences between these two DACs although I don't know why...

Did you use the same type of filter?

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Yes: EVERYTHING I used was strictly identical and under the same conditions.

It's very real and not something that comes from a psychological effect or I don't know what else because I was even able to identify the times when 'my accomplice' told me that he was switching to the other DAC when in fact he was staying on the same device

 

[JIW]

Yes: EVERYTHING I used was strictly identical and under the same conditions.

Which filters did you use for each of the DACs?

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

SHARP ROLL-OFF & SHORT DELAY

Driver ->

TOPPING E70 VELVET (AKM) Firmware ->

Sorry but I hadn't taken the firmware screenshot for the TOPPING E70 (ESS) and I didn't keep the device

 

[JIW]

SHARP ROLL-OFF & SHORT DELAY

Driver ->

View attachment 426500

TOPPING E70 VELVET (AKM) Firmware ->

View attachment 426501

Sorry but I hadn't taken the firmware screenshot for the TOPPING E70 (ESS) and I didn't keep the device

That is Minimum Phase or Minimum Phase Fast Roll-Off for the ESS DAC. Did you use that?

 

[JIW]

That is Minimum Phase or Minimum Phase Fast Roll-Off for the ESS DAC. Did you use that?

Filter 3 on the E70.

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Yes F3 -> 'FAST ROLL-OFF & MINIMUM PHASE'

 

[JIW]

Yes F3 -> 'FAST ROLL-OFF & MINIMUM PHASE'

Interesting. How did you set the levels?

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

The output levels with the 4 volt setting are identical for both DACs like the ones 'Wolf' (L7AudioLAB) posted and I checked on my DACs.
But you already knew that

 

[boxerfan88]

I know that listening tests are purely subjective and I know very well the (objective) measurements made on these two DACS but the fact remains that there are sound differences between these two DACs although I don't know why...

Very glad to know!

 

[JIW]

The output levels with the 4 volt setting are identical for both DACs like the ones 'Wolf' (L7AudioLAB) posted and I checked on my DACs.
But you already knew that

You said you set them to the same voltage. Did you measure the output?

If not, the high tolerance in ESS chip's input/output resistors of +-11% can lead to significant output level variance. See here.

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

JIW, you didn't read what I wrote in my post #69.

I think you're trying to adopt some kind of 'reassuring attitude' by trying to bring me to the well-known 'refrain' of 'if you don't measure it then there's no difference'...

I believe in science: I use it and trust it.
However, I refuse to deny something that I perceive (here listening) because I don't know how to explain it or because I don't ask myself the right questions.
What science does not explain today will teach us 'tomorrow', as it has been for centuries

For my part, I think that I would not 'risk' saying something that will (surely) be false tomorrow: trust the science, don't interpret it please

My name is not Bruno PUTZEYS and moreover he himself would not hold this 'kind of speech' since he is constantly researching

Not so long ago man dreamed of flying, some said that it is impossible while now we dream of going to other planets...

 

[JIW]

JIW, you didn't read what I wrote in my post #69.

I think you're trying to adopt some kind of 'reassuring attitude' by trying to bring me to the well-known 'refrain' of 'if you don't measure it then there's no difference'...

I believe in science: I use it and trust it.
However, I refuse to deny something that I perceive (here listening) because I don't know how to explain it or because I don't ask myself the right questions.
What science does not explain today will teach us 'tomorrow', as it has been for centuries

For my part, I think that I would not 'risk' saying something that will (surely) be false tomorrow: trust the science, don't interpret it please

No, I am trying to find holes in your methodology. If you measured identical output levels yourself, used the same type of filters and did not know which device was the source, I don't know any better than you why you heard a difference.

I do believe that if there is a difference that it can also be observed in measurements. It is just a question of what to measure.

If you did measure the output levels yourself, what was the deviation?

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Of the same order of magnitude as that observed by WOLF.

I wrote that I don't know how to explain this difference with measurements: then it comes from 'something' that we don't do or don't know yet in my opinion.

You know: if we had really understood everything related to listening then I think we would make much better speakers because we are far from being 'perfect' regarding this device at the 'end of the chain' of our sound broadcasting equipment.

 

[JIW]

Of the same order of magnitude as that observed by WOLF.

I wrote that I don't know how to explain this difference with measurements: then it comes from 'something' that we don't do or don't know yet in my opinion.

You know: if we had really understood everything related to listening then I think we would make much better speakers because we are far from being 'perfect' regarding this device at the 'end of the chain' of our sound broadcasting equipment.

What do you mean by order of magnitude? That tends to refer to factor of 10. If the levels are not matched to 0.1 dB or even less, the louder one is likely not perceived as louder but rather as more forward, detailed and punchy and maybe also harsher.

Wolf-X measures the output level of the ESS E70 as being higher than the AKM E70 by 20*log10((4.243+4.247)/(4.201+4.194)) = 0.0977 dB for the XLR and 20*log10((2.125+2.122)/(2.095+2.092)) = 0.1236 dB for the RCA. That may just be audible but probably not as a level difference.

The main problem with listening to speakers is the room. Speaker design can only do so much when reflections and resonances are unpredictable.

 

[JSmith]

TOPPING E70 VELVET (AKM) is better than the TOPPING E70 (ESS) according to my personal 'blind' listening experience using a friend who switched these two DACs without me knowing which one was playing (the maximum output levels had been set to the same voltage).

Initially one ascertains a difference, then a preference... assuming there is any difference to start with that is audible. Did you record your tally of results and where are they? Were there any tells when each cable was being switched and how was the level matching achieved? Would be good to get to the bottom of this...


JSmith

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Hello JSmith

I do not intend to be part of an 'endless conversation' where no one wants to hear or understand the other and I therefore prefer to end it, I thank you for that

I just wanted to express what I felt and my choice, that's all.

Everyone will make their own according to the criteria they deem good or not but above all (I hope) according to their preferences and needs.

Have a great day.

@JIW: What is it that you don't understand when you are told that EVERYTHING was strictly the same ?

If I told you that I can hear what you measure but you can't measure what I can hear: what would be your exact 'protocol' to refute what I would say ?

 

[Burns]

I have an e70, I brought the e70V home twice and listened to it for a whole month. I had two DACs connected in parallel to one preamp so I could switch them on the fly. Both were connected and set to factory defaults. I strained my ears like a bat but couldn't hear the difference. It drove me crazy. I returned the e70V and kept the e70 because it has DSD filters and less Jitter issues. I don't understand why people want to hear the magic sound of AKM at all costs.

 

[Burns]

Sorry but that sounds kind of funny. You don't hear differences yet care about the DSD filters and jitter? I get what you are saying and too still use both the E70 and E70V, but my experience running many DSF tracks through both devices is there is no difference at all. If I was buying today and only could have one it would be the E70 for no other reason than cost savings.

There is currently no price difference between the e70 and the e70V. Both devices can be purchased for the same price, about $315, on Amazon. I listen to most music from Steaming and 192kHz Flac. I don't have a thousand DSD files, but for my own peace of mind I prefer to have filters than not have them. Jitter? Several times the e70V didn't see the signal from external devices, and I did not have this problem on the e70. The cables were the same. Maybe the problem lies somewhere else. I considered the e70 to be a device with a better hardware implementation, and I could not detect any differences in the sound, something subconscious tried to tell me when I changed devices one after another, that the scene was arranged differently. When I switched them on the fly in the same second, the differences disappeared completely.

 

[Burns]

The current price of the 4499 chip is lower than the 9028pro. I have the impression that the e70V was forced by Topping, either the market forced them to do it, or they wanted to test the market themselves, like they did with the R2R DAC now, but these products may as well not exist and the world will keep spinning. The Chinese think differently, they are here and now, their products live now, they don't look into the future...

These aren't products that are supposed to last for decades, they are just supposed to bring profits.